Extra noisey cuts on Safeway plates with suitcase cutter

[timefraud]

Hey y’all, I’m starting a new thread to troubleshoot the noise now that my airline cutter is functional.

My set up is, an airline lathe with an Astatic x 26 head, a recordiopoint steel needle or a tungsten tig electrode I ground down, and some red Safeway picnic plates.

People have suggested more expensive needles, id like to troubleshoot what I have a bit more before throwing some money at it.

I know not to expect good results from this crystal head but the noise seems a lot higher than similar set ups I’ve seen on YouTube.

I’d appreciate any help y’all can offer. Also I updated the cutter head wiki for the x 26 with some of the knowledge y’all shared in my other posts. Here is a link to this hella noisey cut:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5Kv5oLdUCL0

[piaptk]

You are totally mixing up the many different cutting methods, needles, and materials.

It is like cooking... you cannot just throw a bunch of cheap random unrelated ingredients together in no particular order, cooked for no particular length at no particular heat and expect to get anything worth eating.

Please read the newbie guide to see what kind of needles can cut what materials and need what sort of prep (plates do NOT need turtle wax).

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8328

[timefraud]

You are totally mixing up the many different cutting methods, needles, and materials.

It is like cooking... you cannot just throw a bunch of cheap random unrelated ingredients together in no particular order, cooked for no particular length at no particular heat and expect to get anything worth eating.

Please read the newbie guide to see what kind of needles can cut what materials and need what sort of prep (plates do NOT need turtle wax).

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8328

real helpful post, I think i read it when it first went up and it has evolved since then, thanks! I'm also wondering if on top of my confusion, the recordiopoint needles i have are for standard grooves rather than micro. I ordered a steel microgroove needle from that ebay fella in Tennessee so I can continue experimenting before I buy some sapphire.

[Jesus H Chrysler]

An airline would be standard pitch anyway, so a microgroove stylus won't make much difference. A short shank sapphire will cut better than any steel needle on most material.

[timefraud]

An airline would be standard pitch anyway, so a microgroove stylus won't make much difference. A short shank sapphire will cut better than any steel needle on most material.

I'm trying to cut stuff for playback on modern record players rather than the lathe itself. My idea that a standard needle would be worse for the cut is based on this thread about nos russian cutting needles I found while searching the forum:

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5366&hilit=flat&start=20

some quotes from that thread:

Stevie342000 said

"Could the issue be that you are cutting a groove with a Standard Stylus with 80 degree cutting facets and that you are trying to play them back with a micro-groove stylus, perhaps?

A Standard Groove styli is 3 mil and a micro-groove is only 1-mil, if memory serves me right.

If this is the case then you would be playing the bottom of the groove which would account for the excess noise. Just a thought......refer back to earlier post in this thread and look at the photos?"

opcode666 said

"These styli are not microgroove. So, really, not functional at all for doing anything more than lower quality mono cuts. High frequency information can literally be sliced off by the back angle of this stylus. There is a paper about it in the AES. And, yes, none of these styli have the 1:20 taper required for Neumann, Vinylium, Caruso, Vinyl Recorder or my Project Bladerunner."

I'm definitely curious about these cheap russian needles but assume there not a cheaper solution based on what these folks said?

[timinbovey]

An airline would be standard pitch anyway, so a microgroove stylus won't make much difference. A short shank sapphire will cut better than any steel needle on most material.

Actually, it would. Pitch and groove size are not related. A standard groove stylus is going to make you a big fat standard groove designed to be played on a player of the era. A microgroove cutting stylus will cut a microgroove size groove that is compatible with a modern player stylus. Pitch only determines how many lines or grooves are cut per inch. So while cutting at standard pitch with a microgroove cutting stylus you won't get the extra recording time that is available by having the smaller groove which allows you to use a finer pitch, but you will have a microgroove size groove that will work with a modern player. Obviously with a much smaller (narrower) microgroove, you can use a much smaller pitch giving you more lines per inch making records that have longer recording/playing time. But regardless of pitch the groove size will be correct for playing on a modern machine if you use a microgroove size stylus. However, on a modern machine you're gonna have mushy sound unless you're applying the RIAA EQ standard to your audio which is part of the playback circuit in any modern player. But thats and entirely different topic!

In my experience tons of extra noise can usually be traced to the cutting stylus. There's a big difference in noise from worse to best going from steel to stellite, to sapphire to ruby. Also the condition of that cutting tip - a very small imperfection can create a ton of noise - and of course setup on the machine as far as angle of stylus and pressure applied. Back in the 70's I used to cut a ton of stuff with a Recordio with an X-26 using stellite and sapphire needles, and even the slightest change in angle or pressure made a substantial difference in sound quality. Same thing with all my present vintage Presto machines. Setup is critical.

And remember, cutting stylus are manufactured with great precision, within thousands of an inch (or better) to create smooth, quiet cuts. This is impossible to create yourself unless you have the skill and equipment.

Whole 'nother thing if you're embossing rather than cutting

TIB