Trying to create a book in the format as the old talk-to-me format

[ayupchap]

Hey all

My first proper post this which I had posted in the experimental section a few days ago but thing that might have been the wrong place.

Anyhow can any of you help with this at all?

OK unusual question

Back in the day you could get books by two companies with little records on the pages that used a handheld player with a stylus that was placed over them and when matched up would play them records, these were called 'come to life' (still made but all digital now) and 'talk-to-me' by fisher price. Remember them at all?

Anyhow heres some links to them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Grc42U7m8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlR053J35B8

Even though entirely different systems the players on each could play the other and they are the correct speed. These little records are tiny so this is my question. How can you make one of these records this small nowadays? I want to make my own book with a few pages of these little records and wondered how on earth this could be done.

I have just ordered an old unopened player and some books so maybe I can work out some speeds on them somehow (any ideas let me know) but I'd really love to make something in any way possible. Quality is really not the highest concern its about getting something working, I was thinking maybe a way to make them like tiny postcard records or thin acetate but how do you make something this tiny, surely theres a way? I'd obviously use the same player as the old ones available.

As I say, I really want to do this so if anyone has a hookup or any suggestions I can follow up I'd appreciate it very very much.

[markrob]

I'm assuming this is a one off thing and you are looking for somebody to cut the tiny records that match the spec of the old player. While that may be doable, I suspect you will have a very hard time finding somebody to take you up on this. Its a cool thing, but there is a large learning curve to getting this done as its an out of the mainstream thing. Is there more to this request? For example, are you thinking of marketing and selling these books?

Mark

[Discomo]

Don't know what the Rpm of the 'talk to me- format is, but I suggest make a new player which can play 45 Rpm speed records...
That makes it easier for you to find someone who can make your records.

Machine-wise; maybe it's just a simple matter of copying the internal elements
What can it be, a psu, a motor, plus a few capacitors maybe? Can't imagine there's a lot of electronica in it.

[mrd]

Cool project. Comment on this vid, suggests that it's an inside out groove to add some further slight complication:

There are lots of people who can cut small records - there was a guy on here recently cutting 1 inch records, might be worth sounding them out about what you want to do. Remember seeing someone cutting records for talking dolls too

[markrob]

Playback speed is not a real issue for a cutter. Just pitch the source material up or down as needed so that if cut at a standard speed, it plays back correctly at the device speed.

Mark

[Discomo]

Playback speed is not a real issue for a cutter. Just pitch the source material up or down as needed so that if cut at a standard speed, it plays back correctly at the device speed.

Mark

Haha, so simple but true!

[ayupchap]

hey there and thanks for all the replies.

Ok so yep, looking for someone to help create these, I am having my first home lathe turn up soon which I am having restored, its a Meissner 9-1065 so doubt that could handle this obviously haha. The player itself seems really simple so I will look into recreating a player but pitching it sounds like a great work around, this doesn't have to be completely perfect but as close as is possible. I was planning on doing just one copy as a test but happy to do a run and make way more if there is someone that can help with this. Any leads to help with this please let me know as I'd love to explain more details. It would be cool to do this huh.

[markrob]

The pitch shift method should be very accurate once you figure out the ratio. One way would be to capture the audio playback of the player and time the length of the audio. Then, remove the record from the book and play it on a manual turntable and note that playback time. That ratio between these two would be what you are looking for. You might even discover that its at a standard speed (I would guess 78 rpm).

Depending on your mechanical ability, and if you can get the Meissner to actually work, you might be able to do a proof of concept cut on sheet of acetate film by embossing or cutting.

Mark

[ayupchap]

Oh interesting, I didn't think the machine would be able to cut something so close. I believe it should be in great working order as its being dealt with by a total pro so excited for that to get done and for me to start using it. I'll post soon as I can. With regards to the pitch, that makes perfect sense and what a great way to work out the difference, thanks!

If anyone does know anyone that might be interested in this challenge please do let me know. I'm aware this would be a whole process but I'd love to get this to happen and obviously happy to pay for that.

[markrob]

It probably won't be able to cut that close to center without some modification. But if you are up to the task, you can probably find a way.

[ayupchap]

Ah yes, thats what I figured, think this would be above me then honestly. I'll give the dimensions and some photos of the discs and the player when I get the chance.

[Jesus H Chrysler]

These players play inside out at 45 rpm. They use the same mechanism as the Sports talk baseball card player and microsonics çard player.
I have cut inside out records for them at 33 rpm of noise loops and beats, but I modified my players for fully variable speed (and reverse, for scratching). I cut them on picnic plates.

[Jesus H Chrysler]

SportsTalk players stock, and modified with variable speed, reverse, line out, mute switch and insta scratch switch.

[ayupchap]

Wow this is cool! Ok Jesus H Chrysler I think i'm going to need to message you about this!

[diamone]

Back in the day you could get books by two companies. Fisher-Price and Yes!
How can you make one of these records this small nowadays?

Anybody who does doll records can do these, providing they can cut inside-out.

Don't know what the RPM of the 'talk to me- format is

90 RPM the same as the Mattel Alphabet Phone on whose lathe they were cut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMgG4tFgu9Q
As you can see - this kid found out that the discs in question are faster than 78 RPM
which is the top speed his phonograph plays - and then attempts to guess the speed.

Later they did half-speed-mastering at 45.

I suggest make a new player which can play 45 speed records...
Sorry. Insufficient fidelity for the size of the disc at 45.

Just pitch the source material up or down as needed so that if cut
at a standard speed, it plays back correctly at the device speed.

That only works in the analog domain and only in the downward realm (half speed mastering).
Pitching and tempoing it up in the digital domain removes material you need.

Any leads to help with this please let me know as I'd love to explain more details.
It would be cool to do this huh.

Look up``Mattel talking toy and doll record mastering''.
There are several books on the subject written by the mastering engineers who were
there or their assistants who became engineers later after talking toys went digital.

It probably won't be able to cut that close to center without some modification.

Not needed. Any Scully or Neumann can do it by utilizing the standard doll-cut format
(normal 14-inch blank with a half a dozen cuts centered around the 8-inch mark - each
with its own center hole drilled.)

Simply punch the additional holes, switch to inside-out cutting, place the now off-center
blank onto the spindle as if it were a normal mastering blank and go on about your business
of cutting at 45 for a 90 RPM playback. Rotate the blank for the other holes and repeat.

Scribe the master number in the usual place, where a 4-inch LP label would go as this will
be outside the playback area of all discs on the master and send the blank off for plating
and pressing in the conventional fashion. Die cuts will remove the 6 discs from each pressing
and the flash will be recycled in the conventional manner.

These players play inside out at 45 rpm.
Sorry, they are half-speed-mastered at 45 for 90 playback.

They use the same mechanism as the Sports talk baseball card player and microsonics çard player.

Which are also half speed mastered at 45 for 90 RPM playback

[Jesus H Chrysler]

Yes, they do play at 45. I have a few of them and the books and cards they play, see my previous post. It's not the same mech as a talking doll or the mighty tiny or those mini record players from the 60s. It's a similar basis, but I've taken those apart as well and they were acoustic. These players have a magnetic cartridge and an onboard amplifier. It's 80s, 90's tech, a later version of the ones you're thinking of and they def play at 45.

[diamone]

BBZZZTT! Wrong answer. Try again.
1 It came out in 1978 same as the Fisher Price Phonograph not in the 80s or 90s.
2 Count the revolutions in the video of the related Comes to Life/Yes! player.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj3zaLomyxA
From 6:25 to 6:55 you get 45 revolutions in 30 seconds
From 8:15 to 8:45 you get 45 revolutions in 30 seconds
45 revolutions in 30 seconds = 90 revolutions per minute.
3 My uncle worked at Mattel in El Segundo from the late 60s to the early 80s and cut these and all kinds of other ``doll'' records every other day it seems. The four speeds are as follows
Quarter speed mastering at 33 for 133 playback
Half speed mastering at 45 for 90 playback
Real time mastering at 105
Real time mastering at 78
Thanks for playing!

[diamone]

Although there WAS one from France that DID play at 45 RPM.
Not the same thing as the U.S. version which runs at 90 RPM the same as all the others.

Sort of a cylindrical affair about 4 inches tall and black with the player on the bottom and the speaker on the top designed to play similarly-styled flexidiscs pressed into pages. The one I have is an Audubon Society book which narrates in French the various birds pictured on each page.

[Jesus H Chrysler]

Well shit you're right. Its been a few years since I messed with them but I realized where I got that misconception from. When I cut a 78 rpm and it played back fast my brain didn't make the connection that it played fast because it was cut slow so I assumed it was 45. I couldn't cut 45 so I just modded the players. I was still pretty new to this then, but I just kept that wrong knowledge all these years. Thanks for correcting me.

[diamone]

I'll tell you one thing that's funny.

Like any other kind of new marketing fad - they didn't know in advance these were only going to have two incarnations (I count the sports card and Audubon incarnations together since they butted up against each other) several years apart and that each one was only going to last around 18 mos or so.

Mastering guys got tired of listening to half speed mastered kiddie book pages read out loud ad infinitum into the long hours of the night and having to reset every couple minutes or so.

As a result, right before the TTM/CTL players quit being mfg a year or so after, they contracted to make lacquers and rubber rings an inch larger than the cut the same as they (roughly) do for LPs so they could master each one real time and then mount them for silvering and plating - and then mount them into an injection mold in the same 6 or 8 circular pattern they would have used back when they cut six or eight offset on a 14-inch blank.

This is why you occasionally find styrene disc TTM/CTL/Audubon etc books instead of the soundsheet versions - a great deal of the latter of which were cut and plated at Eva-Tone (Deerfield [Chicago] and Clearwater [Tampa]).

Which brings up the second generation of the Talking View Master which ran at 33 being that was the default speed at Eva-Tone. Research and my cousin working in the Mastering Lab there for a couple of years reveals the same scenario - engineers were getting tired of changing disc positions every 30 or 40 seconds or so and listening to half speed mastered droning on and on and on - plus one additional tidbit.

Kids of the 80s and 90s were no longer content with the old See Dick. See Jane. See Spot. See Spot Run. See Dick Throw Toy Against Wall and Smash It to Smithereens from being Bored of It scenario - so they needed something a little more complicated and by necessity - pages that were a little longer.

Even owing to the improvements in record cutting in the 30 years between the first one and the second one, the amount of compression, equalization and other processing that went on is staggering. The fact that they still had to use the same Astatic 89D as all the earlier ones didn't help them any since it adds in the normal RIAA all by itself.

Which means they had to pretty much double or one-and-a-half times process the signal so you could get intelligible speech on such a small disc rotating at only 33 RPM.

The other thing engineers got tired of is multitracking interlaced grooves on the same disc and having to rotate the master EXACTLY so the next one wouldn't run over the previous one.

Now remember, not only is this is being done six or eight times around the circumference of the master (which they had to keep for the 33 versions) - it's also being done SEVEN TIMES PER TITLE. Meaning since it's not 4 like a Mattel-O-Phone or 6 or 8 or 12 like a See N Say - trying to keep the angles correct cutting an odd number of interlaced grooves got very quickly into the category of Paid Too Much to Tolerate This Amount of Decidedly Twiddly Work.

So of course the kids/trainees said we'd do it on whatever raggedy old lathe in marginal repair nobody else was using. I was just getting out of high school when the Teach and Learn Computers came out, so once my uncle told me that my friends and I could go down to Mattel and learn this - and destroy several previously-used cutting styli and one-side-blown lacquers in the process neither of which anybody cared about - Star Trek transporter mechanisms couldn't have got us there fast enough.

Most had at least a half a dozen interlaced tracks - all even numbered so at least the angles matched up and you didn't need a geometry degree just to cut a record. The odd number track ones we made the ``real'' engineers do it (under duress of course since they were still``not paid enough or paid too much'' to tolerate this).

We also made them do the 26-track Alphabet Disc - but this time instead of putting 4 around the circumference of a 14-inch blank, they added in an extension arm to the cutter like they made for back in the days of real time cutting one disc at a time on the mini-lacquers so they could cut all the way to the center - and then for those - created a little elevator plate to mount the mini-lacquers on.

For these they just used the tons and tons of 8-inch blanks that were always laying around to make normal 7-inch test cuts with so e.g. clients could play them on a normal phonograph for quality control etc.

Somewhere in here I should probably put a blurb in about doing entire discs - both interlaced as well as regular - at the 32-pitch or 4-pitch auto lead-in and lead-out grooves. A lot of the interlaced sides you got lucky and could just do that with which means you didn't have to constantly monitor your groove pitch in case it vibrated out of a setting - and that's another whole story all by itself.

Back to the 2nd generation Talking View Master at 33. One groove with both audible as well as inaudible signals. Audible to tell the kid to push the lever to change pictures and inaudible to tell the player to pause the disc until the action was completed. Better fidelity, being able to have longer playing time than the previous incarnations and no having to multitrack - and no having to multitrack an odd vs and even number of tracks.

So if you ever see any of these weird lacquers in thrift shops around areas where cutting and pressing plants are or were - or the pressings made therefrom - now you know.

Makes you wanna have a time machine don't it, so you can go back and watch all of us in action live in person cutting all this ultra-mundane material.

Well that's how junior cutting engineers used to cut our teeth after the days when radio stations and sound trucks quit having their own cutting lathes and nobody cared how it came out - and after the days when everybody's grandfather's e.g. Wilcox-Gay had long since gone to it's Great Reward.

My generation was lucky - we got the tail end before the Wilcox-Gay's had bit the dust and the other tail end when a few of the smaller radio stations and sound trucks still had lathes in that they let the kids go in and play with since they never cared what happened to `em.

So if you inherited one and had to spend months to resurrect it for cutting your e.g. dubplates and masters and having to make real money with it - along with all the Ampex 440s and Scully 280s all the master tapes were played on - we as a generation of now 50-and-60-year old then-junior engineers in the late 70s and early 80s offer our sincerest condolences.

But the stories should more than make up for the inconvenience.