No-label Records

[montalbano]

OK I would like to put an end word about this topic - mainly as a contribution to the forum; stated that very few guys will take a real advantage out of it.

I'm particularly referring to Alpha Toolex presses, so this might not be the same for Leneds or TTTs or other systems, anyway:

All of us normally do the very first pressings without labels in order to check dips/sound/clicks and pops etc. - normal procedure on a pressing plant.

Now what generically happens is that:

as for very lightweight records, such as 7"s, if you press without labels you will have a slightly larger hole. I would say it's a standard on AD702 machines, but the thing which makes me a bit doubtful about this is that here we press 7 inches with very fast hydraulics, this means 3000 PSI pressure w/ accumulator, and this would be the standard pressure for 12"s.
Now here, this turns out to be very fast for 7"s, one record every 15 seconds without non-fills issues, but the AD702 had theorically a lower tonneage and I know that in this forum there are people running AD702 presses without accumulators, with double pump systems, so the results without labels might be slightly different, even if with longer cycles.

As for 12" records, without labels we get a standard hole, but after a few hours this hole might tend to move, and I say MIGHT because it depends on how we stack the records. If we stack them properly, then the hole will probably stay in its correct position. But anyway this is a senseless statement, because what I would like people to understand is that during the very first hours of life of the record, the PAPER is a stable material while the PVC is not.

So this means that any tension arising from anywhere can be minimized by paper's fiber. Because paper, after a 100 tonne pressing, is STUCK to the record and produces tension on it on both sides.

So you have to deal with the record's forming, referring to the upper and lower moulds' heat exchanges, with the labels centering, with the record's cooling between the spacers and with the record's shapes, intended as difference between the records' outer edges thickness and the records's centers thickness.

Coming back to paper I make another example.

Our plant is quite known in Europe as a very good Picturediscs pressing plant.

Now, the labels on Picturediscs are crucial, because they cover the entire surface of the record.

Now each Picturedisc's label has a sign on its back which tells the operator how to align the it with the other label in order to avoid that paper's fibers will not cross eachother. If this will happen, then the record will tend to warp - guarantee.

I just wanted to post this contribution to show how important the paper is on the records. On Picturediscs it is crucial, but in normal records it is very important as well.

[Nottinghamtoolexalpha2]

Good to see some serious debate on Record Manufacture - vinyl is most certainly NOT dead.....!

Think I'll sit on the fence a little, suffice to say that Chris Zenith is a True knowledge on Toolex alpha's, as these were the problems I had when setting up for test pressings - where I'd run the 1st 20 or so off new stampers without labels, as - like chris says - they would end up in the re-grind, as they generally used as a guide for stabillity, and cleaning the stamper ready for the run - they ALWAYS had a mushroom around the centre hole, so I would,t dream of trying to sell them as a Product - more by Happy accident if the mag ran out of labels at the end of the run you could use them as freebies - but not as the finished article....

That said - I did get one or two people ask for them, as they wanted to put they own unique artwork on EACH individual record via self adhesive labels - but these were for very small runs - usually no more than twenty five a time...usually I'd just manually fill the mag every couple of records, but no adjustments....

Hope all is well with everyone - by the way - |I'm still looking for a Toolex in the UK ...I love them - strong, reliable and very well made...if you look after them...!

Best wishes,

CC.

[mossboss]

EMI Australia did not have any make up machines.
All of our print was outsourced.
Vinylfactory owns 2 machines for cutting folding and gluing standard sleeves and 1 machine for gatefold w/remus spine.
For 'testing' stampers' we used white labels or overuns from other jobs turned backwards. That was our common practice. We had no cause for making records with out labels. I am intregued how you became so knowledgable about the 1400. Did you work at Homebush or Hayes? We were always quite careful to protect the proprietry nature of our research & develpoment. EMI had a full laboritory constantly testing and implementing refinements all under Roy matthews direction. There was a strict policy of keeping this information in house.

Nothing new in this Bob Keeping everything in house that is
Philips was the same so was Columbia CBS as well as all the rest
In actual fact Philips would not allow anyone in their plating shops at all as they had some unique ways of pulling 5-10 masters out of a single Lacquer as well as a method of plating stampers already formed to shape without the need to even punch and center them
This information was gleaned through their patents but no one outside had the fine practical details of the process
Columbia patented the 2" center bush so as to get rid of the weak spot in the center of the stampers
Never make your competition knowledgable was the modus operandi for all and sundry
Those days are well and trully gone nowdays
There is little to protect as no inovation in the industry has taken place in many a year
Apart from the CD/Vinyl thingy from Germany I have seen little else and apart from gimmic value, this thing with about 1.3 odd minutes of music on the vinyl side does no more than confirm the advantage of CD over vinyl in so far as practicality is concerned
By the way I never worked at Hayes or Homebush I was at Astor in Huntingdale and a little plant with 3 uprights in inner Melbourne
Now I have the "motley" collection of gear in Melbourne on which we press a record or two
Yes I know the 801's at the VF been Hosted by the wonderful Mr Mathews in factory visits around
Having said all that let me say that with an engineering background as well as many a year smelling the hot vinyl as well as the sulfamate fumes you get a nose for how things are done or how they could possible be done
There many ways to skin a cat but only so many so here we are
By the way the twin screw vertical extruder used in the 1400 was and still is a standard blending extruder sold to many people around the world besides EMI
There was nothing unique about the Vickers hydraulics used in them either stock standard stuff of the shelve
EMI got the Idea by looking at the Alpha design with an inclined extruder so as to provide a small floor area profile unlike SMT or anything else with a horizontal extruder that is an extra 3-5 feet longer
Also the sleeving unit on the 1400 was a hybrid of the Philips patent as well as The Hamilton design and patent that was used on them and the TT's as well as Leneds
The label magazines on the 1400 where an exact copy of the Alpha as well
Alpha Toolex Hydraulics where and still are far superior to anything else ever put on a record press a testimony to the fact that there are more Alpha toolex machines around today running with SMT a very close second as a guess or may be even in numbers
Never the less both presses where and still are fine machines indeed
Any way this can go on for pages I suppose so until next post!!!
Cheers

[BobK]

You completely misunderstand my point of reference. I am not trying to be a self appointed source of vinyl pressing knowledge. I only talk about things which I have a sound knowledge of and I do not speculate on things I know nothing of.
As you seem to know a lot more about the 1400 than I you would know that the design of the press came to be as a result of a design group consisting of senior EMI engineering staff from Germany , the UK and the US. This group was chaired by Roy Matthews who was the production & engineering director for EMI globally at the time. THey purposefully included the best ideas from all of the presses that were current at the time. I believe that EMI was the only company to design and build its own presses BUT, I could be wrong.
There are no Vickers hydraulics on the 1400. If you had one of the operational manuals that I spent quite a lot of my cadetship doing drawings for you would be able to look this up in the supplier list.
The W & P extruders were also a custom order for EMI and were quite different in design to the standard compounder extruder.
I find it a little strange that you feel you need to tell all on this forum of your knowledge of a press that you have seen on a very short unannounced visit to the plant at Hayes.