Don't plate

[mossboss]

Hey all
I have already pointed out that in electro forming what one does in effect is dummy plating
If any one goes into any plating shop gets a pair of long gloves and scratches around at the bottom of the baths he will find parts that have fallen of the trees which are electroformed in an electroplating tank and process Mmmmmmm
On Ziris point
Well if 100 microns thick is called plating it is a very thick electroform than isn't it? or is it plated?
But Ziri you and I know that some DMM plates are electroformed as you can peel off the copper coating like the ones sitting on the window sill in Zbyneks office Yes?
Or the ones you electro ?????? that it is impossible to remove the copper deposit
Ha
Cheers

[Serif]

Hi,
Jiří is now no longer talking about stamper creation. He is talking about DMM blank manufacture. If that's what you meant by Plating, party on, Dudes.

If you meant the process of creating vinyl pressing stampers, it's not actual electroplating. Even if you use the same tank, the purity requirements of the electroforming bathwater exceeds that which is practical for conventional electroplating (due to at least the addition agents for brightening, if not shop contaminants that must be minimized to a larger degree for electroforms to be effectively created (<5 ppm)), the dwell times are longer (30 minutes to hours, depending on the type of forming done), and the telegraphed detail (from mandrel to form) is expected to be in tolerance with the single digits of the nanometer. This is mastering.

No one here doesn't know what electroforming means. Now we all know that it's not really supposed to result in plating. So, let's change the name of this section to Electroforming and Pressing. It's a pressing concern, after all. *L*


Elucidation follows:

If the goal of the deposit is best adhesion and it is intended to "finish" the surface of a metal object, rather than to create a new part, then it is electroplating. If, on the other hand, the mandrel is only used to create a new part using electrodeposition, one is doing electroforming and not electroplating.

The problem with getting this understood clearly is that a lot of people are misusing the verb, to plate. One can deposit without plating (when there is a passivated metal mandrel or a non-metal mandrel is used with a reverse-plating action provided by the Silver Nitrate plus dextrose spray (or whatever that conductive coating is made of...). No plating - only reverse-plating. If you want to call it backwards. Forming, if you can deal with the fact that the reverse plating is temporary (the silver will be removed or the father obsoleted once the Mother is electroformed) and unnecessary, since direct Nickel solution coat-spraying can work on a lacquer. Just need to tweak the chemicals. But even while using a Silver-based reverse-plate mini-step in the process of electroforming on a non-metallic mandrel, one is not doing the actual art of electroplating, since nothing is plated to the grandmother disc. It's coated and formed upon but NOT plated to... The electroform may be reverse-plated by the Silver coating on the lacquer, but this is electroforming. (Forward-)Plating is a fail.

Throwing? √

Deposition? √

Plating? x

Forming? √



- Andrew

[Aussie0zborn]

So we do both - electroforming and electroplating, OK? We will probably use a neutral "Metalwork" word for menu of our new web pages and later will explain the process correctly and more in-depth in text of every page.

Yes, please make sure it's on every page of your new website. That will clear up the confusion.

[GeorgeZ]

...Well if 100 microns thick is called plating it is a very thick electroform than isn't it? or is it plated?
But Ziri you and I know that some DMM plates are electroformed as you can peel off the copper coating like the ones sitting on the window sill in Zbyneks office Yes?
Or the ones you electro ?????? that it is impossible to remove the copper deposit
Ha
Cheers

Hi Chris,
you know I am not a specialist in this field and don't work in our galvanka department. Also our terminology used here maybe isn't correct as we are not native English speakers... but this discussion is interesting so why not to add my two cents, hehe...
Regarding those German copper plates with more than 100 um thick copper layer which we tested:
They seem to have two layers of copper on one steel plate (a doubled electrodeposition process?). I think they were probably wrongly produced, because it shouldn't be possible to split the upper layer with grooves away. The copper plates must be in a state being ready to produce more stampers from them anytime. Our plates are good regarding this - it is not an advertisement:-))

To Aussie0zborn: Yes, we will use the correct word Electroforming on all 52 html pages we are working on now. Serif paid a lot of money so that we could bring the light of truth to the world of vinyl lovers and producers

[GeorgeZ]

...
Regarding those German copper plates with more than 100 um thick copper layer which we tested:
They seem to have two layers of copper on one steel plate (a doubled electrodeposition process?). I think they were probably wrongly produced, because it shouldn't be possible to split the upper layer with grooves away. The copper plates must be in a state being ready to produce more stampers from them anytime. Our plates are good regarding this - it is not an advertisement:-))
...

Oh, sorry, I must correct myself. I've just seen the German plates again and after careful separation of the copper layer from one debris there is a clear steel plate only. There aren't two layers, it was only an optical illusion. The just separated copper layer is self-supporting and I am starting to have thoughts about some kind of strange electroforming as well (or not well accomplished electroplating).
We had cut one of those copper plates to 16 pieces on a metal cutter to create a grid and some of these pieces were tested for hardness by Vickers in a lab on the Czech Technical University in Prague. The copper layer is easy to separate from the steel plate on these pieces, but also another, undamaged, intact plate has signs of bad adhesion of its copper layer. Hopefully our own plates have much better adhesion of the copper layer and can survive more than 10 stampers creation.

[mossboss]

That was my point in all this Ziri. But only to stir up Serif into another upwards or downwards spiral into the nuances of the English language
So we may leave this never ending thread on semantics, as much as it is correct to call it an electroform as that what it is
At the end of the day calling it metalwork will most likely be understood by all and sundry
For the meticulous who do know its fine than they may as well ring up any pressing plant and ask the guys:
Hey how much does it cost for the electro forming step of my tracks?
I am sure the guy at the other end of the phone would be pleased to answer the question
Just like pigs fly
Little pink ones with curly tails if you go outside and look up in the sky you'll see them
I am sure of it
Cheers

[Angus McCarthy]

How on earth did this thread get to three pages...

[Serif]

No one will be confused by the term, electroforming. It obviously means forming by means of electricity.
Many, however, are daily confused by the term, electroplating, even though they don't realize their confusion, since they think it also means making stampers underwater using electricity.


Please stop the counter-intel posts.






- Headley Wiggins, Chief Engineer, Berliner Mastering and Galvanics (not)

[Serif]

How about the term, Pulling? We can change the section name to Pulling and Pressing and keep the p-p alliteration whilst history-buffing the yester-conflation, rather than accepting it as a permanent howler on our trade(s).

Why Pulling? Ions are pulled through the water. Some have called it throwing. But the ions are not thrown by the anode. The ions are pulled through the solution by the cathode. {Imagine the Death Star's tractor beam pulling in a small craft for tea.} Upon contact they deposit as metal. They were pulled into position. Not plated as such. That would imply difficulty in parting and the erstwhile desire to finish metal, whereas we are starting (new) metal and will be able to part the deposited metal mechanically.

Electroformers do not use a plating bath, contrary to what any literature might say. They all use a pulling bath. Some want to plate. Others want to form. No one wants chicken feet and no one wants a worm.


- Serif

[mossboss]

Surely you are pulling our leg, No?
Or are you pulling another stunt or something else?
Lets us know
Cheers

[jjgolden]

The joke's on us now.... and don't call me Shurley

[concretecowboy71]

Roger, Roger...My flux capacitor gave out so now my ions are pushing and not pulling.

[Serif]

Chicken feet and worms are wrinkles in an electroform which are unwanted.

"Throwing power" is a measure of the electrochemical efficacy of the current density.

But the ions are not thrown. Rather, they get pulled.


Pull up! Pull up!

- Doh Singh Yu

[mossboss]

Hey Serif
Have a look at JDC's sign off
It tells a story
You have not fallen for the second part have you? Let us know please
By the way!
Pressing and Pulling (the male reproductive organ) does not cut it for me, Sorry
Cheers

[Angus McCarthy]

...aaand /thread.

[Serif]

Hey Serif
Have a look at JDC's sign off
It tells a story
You have not fallen for the second part have you? Let us know please
By the way!
Pressing and Pulling (the male reproductive organ) does not cut it for me, Sorry
Cheers

Would you rather plate it?

Where is the sign off?

- Stylus Wigglesworth

[Serif]

Ok, me prefer to use it for production. (No "re-" required.) Yuh kant reproduce it or else him can't master it.


- Horace Poots

[Serif]

Gotta groovy new idea for the name change proposal for this section of our cool lathe-knowledge forum:

Making Stampers and Using Presses

(tada!)

Eveybody can understand what these gerunds mean. And there's no deliberate or inadvertent misspeaking entailed. After all, this isn't a section devoted to citing where to find people for making one's stampers or to find a pressing plant. That section is called, Services. This section however is to discuss making stampers (and what words to use to avoid chicken feet and worms) and to discuss using pressing machines (and what precautions to take). Simple...


Chuck Spindle

[concretecowboy71]

BTW--- It's May Day!

[d1rk]

Geeeez.....and getting something really clean with Bleach is called Bleaching too....no one is gonna ever start saying all of that. Techno has like 4 million sub-genres, so does House Music and how about ROCK?

People simplify, it does not matter if it's technically correct or completely incorrect. Once it's called "that", that's what it is. No matter what!

Let's add DUBPLATE or ACETATE to that list! If you are into Jamaican Dub or Drum and Bass it's a DUBPLATE....If you are from a city like New York cutting on the same medium chances are depending on the music genre (maybe Disco or House) it's gonna be called an ACETATE.

Who came up with the term bL0w J0b ? Is that what is actually happening?