Vinyl Record Pressing Plants The raise of the Pheonix and back to ashes?

[ectomorphs]

Hi mossboss, and thanks for the counterpoints which are valid. I don’t think you’re completely off the mark. We always have to be careful with analogies and you’re right to critique the comparison of vinyl record manufacturing with manual gun making. I’m sure there are better examples from other industries. But it is easy to say in retrospect that of course gun making schools, like the one in Ferlach, exist today; The Ferlach gun making school almost shut down at least three times in the 20th century and arguably only survives today because it has integrated courses on industrial design and tattooing (yes, tattooing! – from gun engraving to human skin engraving).
Most importantly, I agree with you that setting up a dedicated school for vinyl record manufacturing would probably not work. There simply isn’t the tradition and local community to support it. However, educational courses on the different aspects of vinyl record manufacturing, either standalone or as part of other related educational courses, could work. As you say, mastering is the most obvious ‘craft’ that requires specialized knowledge and practice. In comparison with galvanics and pressing it is much more unique. As far as I’m aware, galvanics, hydraulics, etc. is taught in general industrial manufacturing courses (including at the gun making school in Ferlach).
Several educational initiatives are already underway, not only Mike’s lathe cut camp but also by the Women in Vinyl community and elsewhere; And teaching people all elements of the process, including how pressing machines work, how to repair and maintain them, etc., would probably be beneficial in terms of helping people across the entire process develop a more holistic understanding (for instance by preventing conflict and misunderstandings between mastering engineers and pressing plant managers). On the other hand, while a much better understanding of the difficulties, risks and challenges of working in vinyl record manufacturing would help people make more informed decisions and reduce naivety, it is this naivety that arguably led to several enthusiasts getting into this industry in the 1990s and early 2000s in the first place. Several people I interviewed told me that they would never have entered this business had they known how difficult it would be. And some of them are still around today and have arguably contributed a lot to keeping vinyl record manufacturing alive when it almost died completely. So, more knowledge at the beginning of the journey does not always necessarily lead to better outcomes for the industry. But I do think that it could somewhat counteract the boom and bust cycles you’ve highlighted, if only in a small way.

Ectomorphs! What an Interesting moniker, love it very Greek indeed, Ok Ferlach, Tradition going back many many years Famous for Drillings, 410 shotgun with a 22 under the side by or a side by side 12 Gauge with a 303 or 7.62mm Russian German cartridges very close match made and sold all over the world, besides double rifles made to order Great pieces of excellent workmanship
Why wouldn't one want to maintain that tradition of these great craftsman?
There was never a mass manufactured product it was gunsmithing by craftsman in small shops
Vinyl records???
Mass produced by the 100's of millions over that long period they have been around
Now having said that lets expand a little
Cutting is where the art craft and magic of a vinyl record, it is the key, galavanics has to come second art craft and a little black magic there as well, pressing! well whats the big deal compression moulding on a four post press with some dude standing in front of a semi auto press, later auto presses took care of the operator one could handle at least 3 presses at the same time
So what are we going to tell these kids that are interested in the game? How to set a press?? sticking a set of stampers on an auto press than start pushing them out ? not very exciting i would have thought, may be the interest would last a while but from personal experience not to long
The bragging rights of someone making a unique product wear off eventually
May be I am completely of the mark here Ill be more than happy to be convinced otherwise
In the meantime Thanks for chipping in and keep it up
Best
C

[daristiguieta1]

If I may add my 2 cents. I haven’t gone and read every single comment but I will add this:

Having worked at the plant that recently shuttered in FL. I know in our case it was a very unique situation that didn’t really have a single cause, more so it was due to a business decision that seemed to have backfired. I will leave it at that so as to remain respectful to all parties.

Another aspect which was hurting us along the way was the inefficiency associated with older machines. These machines need constant work (at least in my experience, we never had any new machines) and yes there is a lack of support infrastructure aside from having a very talented technician (which we definitely had).

Before the “business move” was made, we had extremely high reject rates and that resulted in some third party clients becoming wary of the operation and a loss of profit due to the multiple hiccups we faced in production and QC.

I will also say, it’s a definite factor that cutting and plating eat away at margins if not vertically integrated. These are areas of expertise not easily understood without major research and/or tutelage with the masters of their respective arts.

Anything aside from that, I won’t comment on as I had no experience with all other upper level moves and I consider the folks there to be good people, just unfortunate that the timing of things coincided with this industry slump.

I look forward to the stabilization of the industry once again, this is just natural and I hope to be able to be involved in this business once again in the future, wether cutting or pressing.

[armshouse]

Whenever I meet someone who is planning to open a new plant, and I have met many in the last 5 - 10 years I always have the same first question, which is "have you ever worked in a factory". I have never encountered someone who has answered yes. I can see that there is a complete misunderstanding of what a record plant is among people who start them. I think people envision it as being some sort of crafts business along the lines of guitar building or fine art printing, and not what it actually is, a plastics factory. Factory work is for the most part very dull and a record factory only improves this slightly. I can also see that when they start them they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the record plants roll is in the larger record industry. Most of them put a huge focus on branding, social media, merch, t shirts, stickers etc, all the things that you would do if you start a retail based company. A record plant is not a retail company, it is a business to business company. Your target audiences should be record labels, distributors, etc not the individual people you might find through Instagram. It's all good to market your company and I like that some plants show so much behind the scenes footage on social media, but I can't help but thinking that these plants think that this is how you find enough customers to sustain a plant and I can tell you it is definitely not. If you don't already have some large customers firmly in your pocket don't even think about starting a plant.

[daristiguieta1]

Whenever I meet someone who is planning to open a new plant, and I have met many in the last 5 - 10 years I always have the same first question, which is "have you ever worked in a factory". I have never encountered someone who has answered yes. I can see that there is a complete misunderstanding of what a record plant is among people who start them. I think people envision it as being some sort of crafts business along the lines of guitar building or fine art printing, and not what it actually is, a plastics factory. Factory work is for the most part very dull and a record factory only improves this slightly. I can also see that when they start them they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the record plants roll is in the larger record industry. Most of them put a huge focus on branding, social media, merch, t shirts, stickers etc, all the things that you would do if you start a retail based company. A record plant is not a retail company, it is a business to business company. Your target audiences should be record labels, distributors, etc not the individual people you might find through Instagram. It's all good to market your company and I like that some plants show so much behind the scenes footage on social media, but I can't help but thinking that these plants think that this is how you find enough customers to sustain a plant and I can tell you it is definitely not. If you don't already have some large customers firmly in your pocket don't even think about starting a plant.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you’ve said. I’ll chime in as a young person who has and will continue to consider opening a small press plant in the future.

I think that a lot of younger people getting into this understand the value of direct connection with the end user. While it’s true, manufacturing is traditionally a business to business endeavor… the reality is that potential clients WANT to see this content. They want to connect with the people behind the scenes, they want to fall in love with the gritty side of manufacturing because it makes the whole process more human. We’re not talking shipping off your masters to a faraway country, only to find boxes of records a few weeks or months later. I’m talking about community support.

Another reality is that the support of these small communities isn’t always enough to sustain the business of record pressing, not with the large investment required. I think and I hope that this is what we are or will be approaching in the future.

Sure, the majors will contract the bigger factories, or perhaps build their own once again, but maybe there will be “boutique” pressing plants that will service the smaller clients. Once again, im only talking about what MAY be the reason we see so many people blindly go into this industry… I know that I contemplated a lot during my time at a plant.

[armshouse]

I think that when you say "the reality is that potential clients WANT to see this content. They want to connect with the people behind the scenes, they want to fall in love with the gritty side of manufacturing because it makes the whole process more human", you are talking about the retail customer of the record, or at best someone who is making a record for their own band / music. The focus of many of these new plants started by younger people seems to be appealing to individuals who are making one title. Don't get me wrong, pressing has become much more regional and I would encourage all plants to support the music scene in their local area and be the go to manufacturer for anyone local but keep in mind the reality of how much work you need to fill a production schedule. Even a small plant with just a couple machines should be running a few jobs every day so that means you need the same amount of new jobs starting every day. If your customer base is individuals making one title each you are doomed. Every plant needs solid indie labels with a flow of new work and a flow of reorders to keep the machines running. Forget about major labels, they have in fact already opened their own plants by partnering with with the worlds largest pressing plant to open multiple plants in north america. What entices an established indie label to press with you is not your logo, your instagram or your social media prowess it is being able to provide good quality, good service and good prices. Even then at this point there are many, many plants offering the same thing.

[VinylPrintGuru]

There is one aspect of this business that has not been mentioned. I totally agree with everything Chris Moss has posted! He is right on with his historical facts and his analysis of the current situation. The one thing not mentioned is why 12" records came back to life in the first place. How many products do consumers buy and they do not throw away the packaging? I know of only one product. You guessed it. Vinyl 12" records. Many times, the buyer proudly displays the album jacket on their wall as a decoration. There are many times that artists show up on late night TV talk shows and the lead in introduction is an album jacket with an incredible piece of artwork on it. When cassette tapes came on the scene the artwork part of the music product vanished.
Many years ago (1975) I was introduced to the industry as a Plant manager and Installation/ Start Up Engineer for the fabled SMT (Southern Machine and Tool) press builder. After 5 incredible years of going to many facilities around the globe to start up well over 200 presses I came to the realization that the industry was getting ready to fall off the cliff. I was dispatches to the Los Angeles area for the start-up of the first 8 of 40 presses for the new WEA factory. Only those 8 presses were ever started. The demand for records evaporated just that quickly. And Machine sales STOPPED immediately!
Today we are experiencing something not quite that bad for the record pressing industry. Machine sales is definitely a repeat of 1980. But Records and Jackets will probably stay in demand for many more years or decades. Just not the growth of the past few years.
As for factories closing or for sale -- that is and will be happening. So, if you are a dreamer, broker, or you have a catalogue of music to be pressed you are in luck if you want to control your own destiny. I know of at least one very good opportunity that exists right now.. Donny Eastland 615-415-1711

[mossboss]

Here we are this thread is lively just looking at all the posts, with all the comments reasons for the state of the the industry past and present the players from veterans as well as new comers some who wish to repeat the folly or some who are observers all good input as well as a varied perspective of peoples view, interesting to see input from industry participants
I have no doubt this thread has been read by a hell of a lot more individuals in the game apart from the posters here, It would be good to see some input from a few more but i do doubt that will ever be the case
A prime example is the veteran Donny who is an ardent reader of this site doing his 3rd post even his other two posts where doubled up, so sorry Donny only two posts ever since year dot, Ha Joking of course, his comments are very valid and a lesson from a long time ago
Now back to some more relevant or interesting tad bits
If one takes the time so as to read all of this thread, no doubt there is enough information so as to compile a good guide in so far as the vinyl record industry pit falls upside why and why not
It is mostly there with the generous input of all who have contributed
May be our sociologist can summarise it in bullet point form may be someone else? any one?
Lets call it Do's and Do not, A guide for the aspiring Vinyl Record Manufacturer sprinkled with some anecdotal stuff as well, any takers here? It can be a sticky like a post of mine a long time ago when pressing machines where in the $K 5-10's of dollars besides a plethora of machines gathering dust canibalised but able to put back into operation
Judging by the views of that sticky I have no doubt that it was some guide as to what is required as well as some arbitrary cost in relation to desired end result
May be Ill up date it or may be leave it there as a historical bit of a time past when aspiring participants could get in the game at a reasonable layout unlike what we have seen in the last fe years

[ectomorphs]

Happy to help with a "summary in bullet point form" if we can specify the exact questions to answer! If we're talking about why many businesses fail then it is often due to not having a realistic business plan, although passion, drive, luck, misfortune, etc. can also play a large role in shaping outcomes.
One of the interesting points in the posts above is whether we can consider a pressing plant to be a "craft business" and this is indeed something I have been discussing quite a bit, especially with other academics. I agree that pressing records is not exactly a craft, but that making music, recording, mastering, and making the tools for these things (and tools for electroforming and pressing) arguably are. To position itself as part of a craft, the pressing plant needs to associate itself with actual craft activities. This is perhaps easiest if the pressing plant is part of an indie label. But that again may create problems with respect to efficiency and achieving economies of scale. There is, in fact, an inherent tension between the economics of a pressing plant - which is somewhat dependent on mass production - and the craft ethos of creating unique or limited edition products. It is why I think dubplate cutters have found a viable market niche.

[mossboss]

Excellent, I believe you got the points correct Craft Art mass production , Draw some lines as to what differentiates each aspect of the process, Must not forget the print side as well there are some great things Ive seen out there in so far as record covers go, embossed, gold stamped, raised print, cut outs with the artist profile screen printed covers, 3D silicon moulded depictions of the band etc, Certainly artistic and craftsmanship
Diverting a bit
By the way something that not been mentioned in this interesting thread is the amount of money as a percentage of the wholesale price that the printing industry gets out of a record
Considering that there are a pair of labels inner bag outer cover shrink wrap stickers small packaging cartons of 10-20 records per small carton outer carton for shipping which is double for protection generally printed sticky tape it makes a substantial percentage of the price
Back on cue
You mentioned dub cutters, it was common back in the day to cut a dub plate for just about any future release for the decision makers to listen to, besides it was a tradition in the Caribbean to do a track or two, get a dub so as to play in their famous dance halls but there was never a niche spot for dub cutters back than
Since the desire of any artist to be on vinyl has never really died there is a demand for dubs single cuts small runs either on lacquer or of recent times various plastic polymer alternatives
Considering that every radio station in the world had some cutting lathe prior to magnetic tape these machines found their way either in a landfill or rescued and put to use for the rather small market of small runs or single cut records
The very site we are communicating via is the result of that trend of resurrecting those archaic machines, the plating pressing etc section were added much later
So to say it is a craft or art in its entirety may be a long shot Dissecting the different aspects of the process there is no doubt there is
So how do we say Ok there is the Artist the Mixing guy the mastering guy the cutting guy the galvanics guy who made it all happen to that point, than we need a press to produce them plus the printed items that are generally required, where it does it become a mass produced item
So there lays the challenge, the various steps where it is craft to the end where it becomes a mass produced item, as we all know the glitter goes out the door if anything is mass produced taking away its uniqueness, may be there is a bit of that as well in the current climate within the vinyl record game
Best
C

[armshouse]

Moss, you propose a question but you mostly answer it. I think the lines are pretty clear, the "art" side goes from the creation of the music right up to recording and mastering. Galvanics is somewhere in between art and mass production. The part that comes after that, pressing and printing are definitely mass production. Absolutely nothing wrong with mass production but where many new plants get it wrong is that they don't know which part of this they are in. Many think they are in the art part not mass production so they produce at a scale that is not anything close to "mass". The poly vinyl lathe cut thing is interesting and I think that it brings a craft product into the mix. Many people who want to open a plant would be better off going into this realm, they can make an interesting craft product at a small scale without the financial ruin that is likely if you try to open a plant.

[Prest0]

Just wanted to add that that plants I've visited over the last couple of years that seem most likely to secure relative stability as a business are the ones that haven't tried to expand too quickly, and that have been able to secure metalwork for evergreen titles, concentrated on pressing quality yes, but found ways to compete with big plants like actually having a decent QC process so that nothing shit leaves the door. That's something bigger plants can't/won't offer really.

I note above the prediction that plants without Galvanics are doomed, but I think that depends on how they build in stamper prices to customers, and the supply/demand nature of stampers. Difficult one, of course, because you can quickly eat into margins replacing stampers. But there are plants out there who have tried to start their own galvanics and sank largely because of that failed investment.

In all, most will die out, they have to. Just way too much factory and not enough making. But it's important that labels try to support smaller plants where possible because it's better for the manufacturing ecosystem in general if there are "boutique" style plants to keep the giant plants on their toes. We have moved roughly half of our new work and some back titles to smaller plants. In the longterm it's not good for labels to be on the backfoot with factories any more than it is the other way around (which is where we are at the moment - plants scraping around for any sort of work). A balance on that is possible but will take time and a few casualties yet.

[mossboss]

Hello again
It seems that Presto is on the customer side of things rather than the record pressing side, his perspective is common amongst label owners large and small
It was not uncommon for a large order placer to suck all the capacity of X plant leaving smaller orders in the lurch
Some manufacturers did not help by refusing smaller orders pushing the smaller orders out to unacceptable delivery times or refusing to even take them on
Now here comes the interesting twist,
Oh I can't get any records pressed anywhere, was a common cry, so what did that do?
Oh there is an opportunity here said the "smart" entrepreneur lets open a pressing plant
We will get all this work that others don't want to do we will make a fortune, Mmmmmm
Well we know what that did don't we
On the point of quality
I am not so sure that large plants lack quality control they do and are quite diligent about it, besides what QC has a small plant?
A visual one that's it
Record looks fantastic but sounds like shit the cut and galvanic determine quality in so far as a vinyl record is concerned
Get that right, the record in particular with the later presses given that the supporting infrastructure is up to scratch any one can make a quality record
I must also say that demand by the consumer has certainly gone beyond what the medium is capable of delivering adding another layer of difficulty for new players in the game
Just in this thread alone one can see all kinds of comments as well as reasons why the pressing plants are having a difficult time
Comments like late delivery lack of support no spares no fallback etc etc etc
The issue in my view is the opportunistic approach that has been taken by many without due diligence and a solid business plan that looked at all the various aspects entailed as well as wishful thinking that the sun will always shine and no clouds in the sky will ever arrive
Let's get the story straight Want a pressing plant? better have deeeeeep pockets to get it going, than better know your shit real good so as to keep it alive
Do I or anyone else want to see the game in such a state? No not all However the reality is what it is No doubt there is going to be a fallout, it has already started, what the industry is going to look like in the next year or two remains to be seen, unless there is a major uptick on sales therefore manufacturing demand, I am afraid that it does not look to good at present
Best

[mossboss]

On the case of galvanic/plating Presto said

"I note above the prediction that plants without Galvanics are doomed, but I think that depends on how they build in stamper prices to customers, and the supply/demand nature of stampers. Difficult one, of course, because you can quickly eat into margins replacing stampers. But there are plants out there who have tried to start their own galvanics and sank largely because of that failed investment."

Once again here is the case of the uninitiated getting into an area that they believe its a walk in the park
I am aware of plants getting into metalwork and failing miserably,
As a long gone expert in electroplating process said "For every 100 electroplaters out there there is one electroformer"
And that's what we do in making metal work for vinyl record production, electroforming, platers only care about adhesion and it is invariably a decorative finish or a protection coating of the base product not something you need to form into shape, which needs to be very ductile
The process looks simple enough but it is not, Experience Craft and black art
You don't get that with money, grind your ass for a few years, pull your hair out when for no rhyme or reason your baths are not doing what they done for a long time, figure it out, no logic works, sleepless nights, no output, throw all your chemicals out start from scratch, and than it all works again until the next time, than you get the friendly worms! nice ones as well, Pheww what do you do?
Expert advise? good luck with that, in the many years I have been at it its an ongoing challenge
Years go past with no issue whatsoever than you get some contamination from god knows where, your stampers are brittle, Useless, sort it out Filter the 1000 L of sulfamate, Treat it with carbon, Permanganate, peroxide, etc let it settle 2-3-4 days day and night Lovely time back to normal, Until the next time
So who goes into that without doing their homework FIRST
Not an easy answer for that
But just like the many internet experts we have around in many areas, it may be another case of that I don't know May be some ppl here can throw a light to it, what possesses ppl to do it without been aware of the pitfalls!
Best

[EmAtChapterV]

Deepgrooves Pressing in the Netherlands has declared bankruptcy as of this past week. Sounds like they'd been having trouble filling orders in a timely fashion, or at all, for the past year. Lots of very unhappy customers.

(No relation to the late Todd/ OpCode66.)

[mossboss]

Yes it was posted on Discogs and really fast which surprised me,
So far we have 4 plants gone that I am aware of, Dublin Vinyl in Ireland, M col Musique in France, Deep grooves in Holland, one in the USA Florida, if any one knows anything else going on please posted here
Besides, a couple plants have pulled the pin on pressing records ,it seems they have their gear on the market, one in France another in Italy with a few presses, however both of those entities have other activities and deep pockets, ha, so i don't see them going bad
Hard to say specifically what caused the demise of the first 4, most likely a combination of factors which I believe have mostly been covered in this thread, as for the last two mentioned lack of orders it seems or they had enough of sticking 50 cents or more for every record going out the door
Be good to keep this thread active on any news relating to pressing plants, we will not see any plants with cutting and galvanic going down, besides we will not see any cutting guys going down that path either, nor any galvanic outfits for that matter, has any one wondered why??
That perhaps may be a subject for another thread

Best

[misjah]

spinroad (sweden)

[mossboss]

Well I was not aware of that one that's for sure Thanks
So that's 5 plants so far I can confirm based on internet search information any way
I wonder if we should start another thread of departed pressing plants?
Any suggestions?
Best

[untitledthe]

As far as my french/translate goes La Manufacure de Vinyl isnt here anymore for a while now..

https://www.facebook.com/LaManufacturedeVinyle/

[armshouse]

Blue Sprocket Pressing (Virginia, USA) closed a few months ago and is for sale (3 warmtones, 1 light tone if anyone is interested). A couple more US plants seem to have stopped pressing but haven't announced closure yet. This is all a sad but very predictable chapter in the history of record manufacturing. I fear there will be many more closures before we get back to a sustainable amount of capacity.

[mossboss]

Well here we are, I am afraid I have to agree with the over capacity in the game, however I also wonder how many are out there who will buy these machines which are hitting the market with plans to set them up elsewhere as another startup
Sure their cost of entry will be far lower but that does not help the game at all as the over capacity will remain albeit with some delay until they get sorted out in their new venture
Remains to be seen of course, I suspect they will most likely fail as well but in the meantime they will take away a slice of an ever decreasing pie not doing themselves or others in the industry any favours
Best