Presses

[mrsteadyhands]

Hey again, got another Q. We found a toolex alpha 12" machine we think we will buy, are these any good? I read somewhere they break down alot?? We dont really know which machines are best. Also, do toolex do a 7" press too? Do you have to buy a separate press for 7's?

[opcode66]

I think all record presses break down a lot. That's the bitch of working with older gear...

Alpha Toolex have always been spoken of kindly on the forum. I have no personal knowledge. But, from what people have said, they seem to be good machines.

[mrsteadyhands]

Thanks for getting back. Is there an actual quality difference between machines?

[fraggle]

there are always differentses between machines mate.
you should ask mossboss or montalbano.
cheers

[mrsteadyhands]

Cool, i'll track em down! But, is there any machines that are known for being better or worse than others? i've been looking online, and its really hard to find some kind of comparison between presses.

[mossboss]

Well now
So there is an Alpha machine available that as made 30 odd years ago and someone is asking if they are any good?
The simple answer is Yes extremely good
The question is who is going to keep it going and where are the spares if any are needed?
The same goes for any other 30 yo piece of equipment regardless what its intented to produce
There are parts that just wear out Pins and bushes are no issue costly but available as well as some other bits and pieces very costly
The biggest issue with the alpha its the very well built controller that incorporates 5 Euro standard cards which are robust as robust can get but they have not been made for 30 odd years repairable at great cost
Besides the switches amazingly still work after 30-40 years but replacements are Costly Cards around the £800 each and switches at about £50 each
Break an unloading arm around the £10000-2500 A label arm about the same Label blades around the £300 each Gear box bearings need replacement quite often £600 a set and about 2 days work at around te £45 an hour
A set of moulds £1700 per side = £3400
A set of hoses around the £100 x 4 = £400
Steam and water valves around the £800 each x 4 = £3200
Repair kits for them £180 a set
Alpha expert in the UK? sure available at £40 an hour plus travelling time around the £300 per day
The average job call about a days work
There are around 40 air solenoid valves that cost around the £48 each not all of them work as hard as some the hard working ones need replacement
Also you would need very stable steam supply at 170 Lbs psi and a reasonable cooling tower to do the trick
A lower pressure steam supply does not cut it with the alpha as it has a built in max cycle time of 45 seconds Exceed that and the press goes out on time out Manual presses and other brands do not care about cycle times so no issue but alpha no way about 150 psi its the low limit and you are running a risk if the pressure differential is a bit wider than normal on the boiler
Tower license and maintenance compulsary in the UK around the £3000 per annum
Steam boiler/generator the same around the £3000 per annum
Hydraulic system for the machine around the £6500-7000 new or about half used
Replacement HP pump around the £3200 LP pump around the £1800
In simple terms if you dont see the machine working with a good set of moulds that can take at least another reprofile and without leaks on the valves steam and water Leave it alone
So Excellent machines Keep them running at a profit 10-12 hours a day no issue
Stop them and start them of the cuff you buy yourself a lot of headfucks and better have deep pockets as well
Now
Let me guess what would happen after the above is read with out any intent in doing some reasearch
It will go something like this
Oh I have a mate who can do most of that and he has a mate that can do something else and another mate can do this and that and I am technical any way so no issue
I am ready to give it a go the press will make 1000 per day and there is at least £3-500 per day and i do not make that much now for a weeks work, I will make a fortune and I love vinyl any way
OK Now ltest see the scene in the UK
Quick press 12 machines Gone
Curved pressing 8-9 machines Gone
IRP pressing 8 machines Gone
PR pressing 12 machines Gone
Plant in Bedfordshire 4 machines Gone
Plant in Essex 2 machines Gone
A couple of others which escape me at present gone as well
All in the last few years
What was common with all of the above?
Low prices Wrong model
Survived on pressing highly priced bootlegs and lost the money on normal production runs
No bootlegers around to pay cash and no receipt for the pressing no profit Cant survive on the normal runs shut the doors
All of them with alpha toolex machines and a lot of expertise in there as well
These are the facts and pressing records is a thankless task any way
So here you are Sir all in a nutshell for you

Cheers

[mrsteadyhands]

wow, thats amazing, thanks so much for the insight! we actually knew this would be costing us a lot of money, but it's just fulfilling 5 vinyl obsessives dream, not for commercial profit. A vintage car obsessive would buy an old car knowing he would have to spend thousands on it to keep it going, it's the same thing really, but fortunately there are 5 of us to spread the costs!

[mrsteadyhands]

Oh by the way, we won't be doing bootlegs! We all make our own music and DJ all over, just want to do short runs of our own stuff. All of these plants in the UK that have gone under, where did their equipment go? Do you think we could pick some of it up somewhere?

[Monkey]

have you thought about the cost of mastering and galvanics, and also where you can get this done?

[andybee]

hey!

I think, toolex presses are the best made, very solid (swedish) quality,
but every machine needs good maintance, as mossy said.
please note, that you need a lot (!) of other machines to
run the press, you need:

-steam 12bar stable, 150kg/h (more is better)
-cooling water (best is 20degrees stable @ approx 10bar)
-hydraulic pump with tank (best for one press is a tandem pump,
you need a fast close of the press and then stable pressure @ 200bar)
-pressure air (normally 6bar stable approx. 100 liter/min)
-vaccum (also 100 liter/min at arround 0.8bar)

normally, every pressing plant has:
-center hole punch (to get a 1" hole exact in center of the stamper)
-preforming press (stamper must fit onto the moulds)
-label ofen (to dry the labels before pressing)
-machine to recycle the edges (mill)

you can also think about a cutting lathe and a galvanic system,
but thats another story

I started 3 years ago with a small 7inch plant, and had no idea,
what I am doing, but a lot of helpful friends and persons.
And, luckily, I bought a 100% working toolex 702, and it
is still running, so I am very happy

I think you will need help with pneumatics, hydraulics, electronics,
water and steam tubing and a lot of other things....

Check also out this:
www.amei.se (the drawing)

good luck!

ps: spirax has good steam valves for approx. 200 Euro each,
works up to 14 bar steam.

[mrsteadyhands]

I have thought about galvanics, we found some baths, and I found out about the process as much as I could. But where do I find the chemicals? Is there a company who sells it in the UK?

[mrsteadyhands]

Also, thanks for the diagram, bought up some interesting points for me. I was going to ask this at a later date, but recycled vinyl - has anybody ever pressed just using 100% recycled vinyl from discarded edges? Is there a huge drop in quality to use 100% recycled? I hear a lot about using virgin vinyl and all that, but how much of a difference does it make in the real world? Does using 20% recycled and 80% virgin make any difference to using 100% virgin?

[Monkey]

I have not made a record out of 100% edges before but i have made many records out of 100% regrind (old records with the centers punched out). i would say to the untrained eye / ear that you would not notice any difference. But yes there is a difference you loose the "shiny look" , and possiable "not fill" and the "crisp" sound but it all depends if your customers are happy to pay for cheaper records than great sounding / looking ones?

Any one else's thoughts?

[vinyl-groove]

i love that diagram ,

[mossboss]

The issue is quite simple really but no one bothers looking into it
Regrind from ONE brand of old records would difinitelly produce better sounding records today
Additives such as lead and cadmium common in pvc formulations years ago are now banned so there is a distinct drop in sound quality no doubt about it
The problem is that any old records are crushed together so as to provide regrind for repressing which leads to all sorts of issues
Even today one would find a temperature difference of about 15-30 Degrees C in melting points between different blends from different suppliers
Imagine having 1000 records to crush from 10 different manufacturers in other words 10 different pvc compound suppliers with diferent formulae for each one of them
What result is one expecting to get?
Besides the cost of a set of stampers which can be easily ruined with a bit of hard plastic or a bit of foreign material in the regrind makes it a bit of a no no from a pro pressing plants point of view
Unless they know where it come from and who's material it was they stay away from it and will only use their own regrind that normally is about 10-20% depending on the reject rate of the pressing plant
At any rate beside the ecological reasons which are important enough today there is no advantage in using regrind from different sources as it is a pain
Having said that given one single source of one brand and of sufficient qty of records to grind up I would use regrind repeletised pvc from 30-40 years ago as it will give me far better sounding records that any material available today
Cheers

[mossboss]

Oh by the way, we won't be doing bootlegs! We all make our own music and DJ all over, just want to do short runs of our own stuff. All of these plants in the UK that have gone under, where did their equipment go? Do you think we could pick some of it up somewhere?

Hey DJ
Here is your lucky day man Posted right here in the last couple of days


Hello,

unfortunately all plans failed to find a new place in my little hometown to move my pressing plant into a better location (it is installed in my barn at the moment), I decided to stop an sell it.
Following parts are for sale:

TTT Taunus Ton Technik 12“ press complete with moulds, extruder, matrixes trimmer and spare parts (former Dominate/Flight 13, stored in Munich at the moment)

My pressing plant (installed in my barn):
Toolex 12“ semi automatic press, professionally converted to full automatic use (new hydraulic, oil cooler,Automation is processed by SIMATIC S7, full programmable)
Certuss 150 steam boiler with all parts you need to run.
Cooling system with all parts you need (tanks, pump, heat exchangers etc)

Hydraulic press to shape matrixes for Toolex moulds.

We did some pressings, but had problems with the barn as a location (unstable room temperature, not enough voltage etc) so we decided to stop.

Feel free to contact me for pictures and prices

[mrsteadyhands]

So what is the actual make up of PVC for record pressing today? What is most important to get optimum sound on the record?

Is there another additive that could be added instead of lead of cadmium? Seems if records used to sound better because of these, shouldn't somebody find something to put in there that won't get banned?

[mrsteadyhands]

I also read that record industry in holland had their vinyl made toluene free, which bought it into EU environmental guidelines. What exactly is toluene, and what actual difference does it make to audio quality? i have had record industry vinyl before, and i quite liked it.

[montalbano]

Are you sure you are a DJ?

Record Industry's records are very good and have extremely low noise because:

- normally they use DMM technology, so they skip the silvering process;
- they have the biggest plant in Europe so
a) they make enough money to pay a serious quality control and a regular mainteinance of the machines (I think they have Lened presses)
b) due to the huge ordered quantities, they pay the compound less than any other plant, so I suppose they will probably put a very small quantity of regrinded material and probably of the same kind of the virgin material, or no regrinded material at all

So it's not that they use a specific, special compound. The PVC suppliers for vinyl records in Europe are just a few and they supply all pressing plants. Then each plant deals with the customers and prices.

People lately seem to be pretending quality in vinyl records: that's right, but they have to understand that quality means costs on mainteinance of cutting/galvanics/pressing department, costs on quality control, and 100% virgin compounds extruded at the correct temperatures. If the average prices of records would be just a 20% higher than now, so say 1,00€ per record instead of 0,80€ - just to make an example - all this would be much easier in my view

[mrsteadyhands]

I dj, it's not my job, but I dj most weekends. I generally just love vinyl and want to make sure I am making the right decision before i spend tens of thousands of my hard earned cash.

i mean, i know RI do great vinyl. some of my friends had some of their records pressed there and i thought it was great! I was more asking about their claims of toluene free vinyl. what is it and why does it make a difference? i get what you are saying about keeping standards up across all of the process to keep quality high, i just wanted to know exactly what these variations in the pvc itself make in the quality of audio? so the pvc across all pressing plants is pretty standard then? could i potentially just go to a normal plastics company and ask for some pvc and expect it to work?

By the way, what is DMM technology? I did see something about it on their website. how does this avoid the silvering process?