Looking for Mouldholder

[untitledthe]

Hello everybody,


I have taking on the adventure to turn a 4 column press from the injection moulding industry and turn it around to a conventional semi-automatic/manuel compression record press. I do this next to my regular job as proces-operator at a personal-health company manufacturing OneBlade shavers, which include injection molding, robot assembly and packaging.

Perhaps some of you came across my project allready, you can follow it here: https://www.instagram.com/vinylfeeling/
So far i got 81A generator, 2 presses (preparing one), 2 injection units which one is converted to extruder, recordtrimmer, some miscellaneous stuff like heatexchanger, pump but also 2 sets of mould inserts.

Now for my next step i am looking for a moulder holder / stamper fixture system in the line as the manual Toolex Alpha.
A system where you can do stamper-change without swinging out the moulds like bookmoulds or the automatic Toolex presses.

Do you got any older parts of any kind that might come to use? I am interested. Help a kid with a passion out Time is not of the essence.


All the best,

Jacob

[llary]

Hi Jacob, I design and build record presses commercially, I can maybe give you a few pointers to save time.

As you probably realized the equipment you have is not really optimal for record pressing and you will have to fight against your equipment for a good end result. It's not impossible but personally I would maybe keep the hydraulic power packs etc and look at finding a more suitable press.

Main issue I see is that the press is designed for much bigger moulds, parallelism of the upper and lower moulds will be a problem as will cycle times.

What is the tonnage on your press and does it have separate fast cylinders? Do you have electronic proportional valves to control flow and pressure on the fly? I think these are essential for a modern record press.

Making mould carriers should not be too difficult for any good industrial machine shop, you can copy the American presses that lock the mould with four bolted clamps and use a tapered locking tool that locks your bushings by friction fit. The stamper OD is locked by a friction fit retaining ring.

Have you actually tried running PVC through your extruder? I am a little worried about seeing temps over 200C in one of the videos you posted, PVC used for records will burn over about 150C. Also injection moulding extruders are designed with a high pressure pumping zone at the end, this is unnecessary for compression moulding and may cause issues with sheer stress in your material. You already have the extruder so I guess just try it and see!

[untitledthe]

Hello llary,

Yes i have realised from the start the equipement is not optimal for record pressing and it has been a fight till this point and will continue like that till the finish line too with numerous (major) set backs. Which is one of the reasons i am doing this on a hobby level to reduce risks and stress. Its the hard way but not impossible, as a true internethero i know 3 to 4 similar setups of plants starting out with presses from outside the recordpressing industry.

As a rookie i have not many doubts on the press so far, problems with parallelism is always possible also with a wornout recordpress. Used press is despite from 1994 relatively new with 1500 hours and came with a mould set with even smaller footprint - but i must admit - less critical product (plastic emblem).

The press is a Battenfeld BPH1000 of 100 ton with a 240L oil reservoir and has indeed seperate fast cylinders aswell as options of setting up speed and pressure in 3 different stages in down and 3 up stroke. Its a press developed for test pressing of thermoharder/plast products including all bells and whistles needed for this.

Currently i have been trying to get in contact with a mould manufacturing shop from the injectionmoulding industry, but due other developments and chances for the overal project this is on lower priority till next year. And if someone still got something usefull mouldcarries lying around and doesnt use it as they moved on to newer presses ill take the shot and just ask! Im willing to get in contact with fellow record pressing enthousiasts and drive across Europe.

I share your doubts on the extruder to a level. In the video you mention the heating coils are 200C and if you look closely i also measure the barrel itself which drops down to 150C. In the video im a pruging out the last cleaning material, probably PE. I have continued the experiments with PVC cleaner and actual PVC granulate but with previous mentioned settings the pvc came out crunched and cold, not even molten. My coworkers mentioned working with a injection unit needs higher temperatures to work with then a extruder without stressing out the material. The injection unit/extruder needs more work sorting out, correct labelling and wiring before experiments continue and i will probably get in the help of a injectionmolding consultant from work to finetune parameters.

Thank you very much for your input, i appreciate it llary!

[2043]

Hi Jacob,

Have you tried contacting Wilh. Shafer GmbH yet? They make all of Newbilt's mould parts. Probably can custom anything you may need and save you allot of headache. I often find some extra cost for solutions is far more valuable than trial/time/frustration...
https://www.wilh-schaefer-gmbh.de/Vinyl/

Good Luck!
Mike

[untitledthe]

Hi Mike,

Yes i am in good contact wit Wilh. Schaefer, but for the time being im looking for someone who got these mouldholders laying around and want to earn some cash.

Thanks!

[llary]

Hello llary,

Yes i have realised from the start the equipement is not optimal for record pressing and it has been a fight till this point and will continue like that till the finish line too with numerous (major) set backs. Which is one of the reasons i am doing this on a hobby level to reduce risks and stress. Its the hard way but not impossible, as a true internethero i know 3 to 4 similar setups of plants starting out with presses from outside the recordpressing industry.

It's no big problem using a press that wasn't designed for vinyl pressing but you want to make sure that the features and specifications are at least vaguely compatible with your intended use. We designed our own 3 column press from scratch and the hydraulics are supplied by a company that makes rubber moulding machines for truck tyres.

As a rookie i have not many doubts on the press so far, problems with parallelism is always possible also with a wornout recordpress. Used press is despite from 1994 relatively new with 1500 hours and came with a mould set with even smaller footprint - but i must admit - less critical product (plastic emblem).

The press is a Battenfeld BPH1000 of 100 ton with a 240L oil reservoir and has indeed seperate fast cylinders aswell as options of setting up speed and pressure in 3 different stages in down and 3 up stroke. Its a press developed for test pressing of thermoharder/plast products including all bells and whistles needed for this.

100 ton is on the lower side for a modern record press but it will work. You can make 7" no problem, may struggle with 12".

Currently i have been trying to get in contact with a mould manufacturing shop from the injectionmoulding industry, but due other developments and chances for the overal project this is on lower priority till next year. And if someone still got something usefull mouldcarries lying around and doesnt use it as they moved on to newer presses ill take the shot and just ask! Im willing to get in contact with fellow record pressing enthousiasts and drive across Europe.

I think the chances of you finding a pair of mould carriers lying around are slim to none. They usually live on the press and also how are you going to bolt them to your press platens without extensive modifications to the platens or carriers? Better to have new mould carriers designed around your press.

Have you thought about using book moulds? They have some disadvantages but all you would need are some simple guides to run them in and out of the press, and a basic mechanical opening mechanism. They are more forgiving than Toolex style moulds as all the centering etc. is handled by the mould itself.

I share your doubts on the extruder to a level. In the video you mention the heating coils are 200C and if you look closely i also measure the barrel itself which drops down to 150C. In the video im a pruging out the last cleaning material, probably PE. I have continued the experiments with PVC cleaner and actual PVC granulate but with previous mentioned settings the pvc came out crunched and cold, not even molten. My coworkers mentioned working with a injection unit needs higher temperatures to work with then a extruder without stressing out the material. The injection unit/extruder needs more work sorting out, correct labelling and wiring before experiments continue and i will probably get in the help of a injectionmolding consultant from work to finetune parameters.

What is the diameter and length of the screw? Do you have any idea about how long the pumping zone is and intended working rpm? Injection moulding extruders partly rely on friction to melt material and create a compression zone near the tip forcing out extrusion at high pressure. Compression moulding extruders rely more on external heating with minimal pressure inside the barrel. If you are seeing unmelted pellets at the die zone then you could be running the screw too fast, or it may not be long enough to properly homogenize the material.

[untitledthe]

I think the chances of you finding a pair of mould carriers lying around are slim to none. They usually live on the press and also how are you going to bolt them to your press platens without extensive modifications to the platens or carriers? Better to have new mould carriers designed around your press.

Have you thought about using book moulds? They have some disadvantages but all you would need are some simple guides to run them in and out of the press, and a basic mechanical opening mechanism. They are more forgiving than Toolex style moulds as all the centering etc. is handled by the mould itself.

The press has a shut height of 300mm so i need fillingplates to cover this gap and with this, a conversion from the mould package to the press platens is not a big problem for a friend of mine to machine.

Bookmoulds did cross my mind, but for 1 they are very expensive, 2 there are more parts to be made and move in/out plus i wouldnt have any advantages to a Newbilt. When i got everything up and running my goal is going for the more 'luxurious' (just to give it a name) pressings, picture disks and really dive into the rabbithole of coloured pressings.

I dont say its impossible with bookmoulds but i have my doubts pressing picture disks and doing crazy coloured stuff with moving moulds and short centerpins to prepare a picture disks for example. Thats what would make a difference in a market with Pheenix Alphas and Newbilts in my opinion.
I do believe you that the bookmoulds are more forgiving then Toolex moulds but i have confidence it works with the right parts.

What is the diameter and length of the screw? Do you have any idea about how long the pumping zone is and intended working rpm? Injection moulding extruders partly rely on friction to melt material and create a compression zone near the tip forcing out extrusion at high pressure. Compression moulding extruders rely more on external heating with minimal pressure inside the barrel. If you are seeing unmelted pellets at the die zone then you could be running the screw too fast, or it may not be long enough to properly homogenize the material.

Im going to pull the screw and have a good look again, its not a big problem with this injection unit and ill ask around for the intended working rpm. With the last experiments i worked with very slow rpm as the hydraulic pressure was quite intimidating as the hydraulic power pack is designed for injection with great force and speed in (milli)seconds, so i decreased the pressure and with that, the rpm. The injection units still needs the previous mentioned works but moreover safety measurements (emergency stop, hydraulic line covers and housing). My attention went for a steamboiler i managed to get hold of.

Thank you for your pointers!

[untitledthe]

If anyone got a mouldholder set for sale let me know! Its allways interesting to see if it can be usefull with modifications! Thanks!