Elasticstage - short run record production

[ChefTony]

I heard about Elasticstage a while ago... https://elasticstage.com/

And was intrigued by claims on their website such as
"elasticStage has developed a new technology that can outperform traditionally produced commercial-grade vinyl. We can't reveal our technology,...."

It took a bit of searching on the UK Gov website - but I found these published applications
https://www.search-for-intellectual-property.service.gov.uk/GB2630727/documents
https://www.search-for-intellectual-property.service.gov.uk/GB2604403/documents
I've attached a copy of the published doc which describes their production system....

In short - automated lathe cutting, label and sleeve production.... nothing revolutionary from a technical perspective
And not a "new technology" ... but rather a production process... with robots that place, turn an remove the blank, and electrostatic adhesion (is this new ?) instead of a vacuum platter...

T

[Lupu]

Thanks for confirming. The "we can't reveal our technology" statement put a smile on my face as it was obviously lathe cuts.

No idea about their pricing though. It would be interesting to know the quantity where it gets more expensive than traditionally pressed records.

[trailerparkjesus]

I have to ask... do you think these people have ever cut a record? I would first say the static adhesion would cause insane swarf issues. Second, it seems like they think the head/lathe part are a no brainer and the challenge is the manufacturing processes?

[PLD]

Someone I know is using their services at the moment. The results have apparently been somewhat variable (as far as the discs go, at least; the sleeves are apparently excellent quality) but good enough for him to carry on using them for a second project. A shame to see the usual 'big investment operations attempting to pull the rug out from the little people' scenario yet again, but hey ho.

[Aussie0zborn]

Thanks for posting. As we could already tell, they're lathe cuts and yet they raised £3.5m from investors (that's 4.2m euro, 4.5m USD) !!

A few things stood out in the IPO document and I don't see the need for a patent. Their mention of stampers being made of nickel or copper shows how they have no idea. Copper has not been used since the 1940s. Their desciption of a DMM disc shows they have never held one in their hands. The claim that this system can be used to make CDs is highly questionable. While Neumann made a prototype of a DMM CD lathe which embossed the pits onto the copper layer in the mid to late '80s, it failed and never went into production. This would have been a real game changer for the CD industry by eliminating a lot of materials, processing, chemicals and the asspciated time and yet it was unable to be perfected. If Neumann cant do it, I don't see others doing it.

As with all things of this nature, there are a nunber of questionable claims, namely....

Steve Rhodes, CEO and co-founder of elasticStage, said: “We have built a revolutionary way to manufacture vinyl that will soon replace the current outdated, traditional method that uses harmful chemicals and a lot of energy, along with long lead times and unnecessary warehousing." Dan Grech-Marguerat added: “The future of vinyl is here. With a next day turnaround time, gone will be the days of waiting months for vinyl production. The high-end sound quality and incredible definition will shock any avid record lover. With less noise and an excellent stereo image at low frequencies, this is the vinyl manufacturer the world has been waiting for.”
https://www.musicweek.com/labels/read/on-demand-vinyl-platform-elasticstage-raises-3-5m-in-funding/086363

We know that that lathe cuts are nothing new or that they will replace record pressing anytime soon. The "excellent stereo image at low frequencies" is highly questionable and cause for concern.

It seems they have taken an existing concept and automated it. The desciption of the customer intereface sounds a lot like Mobineko's excellent online order form where you literraly "build" your record online so even that part of it is not new.

What a shame the investors didn't put their money into building a lacquer disc plant!

Anyway, it's a service that has already been proven in the market and is likely to work but their claims (at least the ones we care about) are not grounded in reality. Good luck to them!

[Fela Borbone]

This is an interesting enterprise, not as new as they claim, but certainly robotized and more efficient. Why they dislike the word 'dubplate' is a mystery. Anyway, it's a good option for artists, who won't have to bother selling their records themselves (though I wonder if they'll receive copies for their merch tables at gigs).
I wish I could peek into their factory... How many lathes would they need to match the output of a single press? Forty?

[farmersplow]

I think the biggest achievement is to collect USD 4.5 million from investors. You have to achieve that first.
But if they really had 40 machines, for example, then they could produce 1400 LPs a day (35 LPs per machine in 16 hours - 2-shift operation). That's 448,000 LPs per year (320 days). And if you make a profit of $10 per disc, the investment is recouped in a year.
All you need now is 450,000 record orders and the hope that nothing will break and the profit will be as high.
I've seen worse financing concepts, but I've also seen better ones.

[Lupu]

Why not take this concept further like cassette or CD-R duplication and speed it up?

No more half-speed mastering, automated parallel lathe cuts at 2x or 4x speed = PROFIT.

[mossboss]

Well I did read the patent granted to them, Interesting reading but a lot of gobbledygook as well
I can see one area that a patent can be issued and that's the electrostatic method of holding down the blank
Other than that I simply cannot see what is patentable here, is a computer network for downloading patentable??
Maybe i am missing something
Best

[mossboss]

@ Farmersplow, love that name Thomas

I think the biggest achievement is to collect USD 4.5 million from investors. You have to achieve that first.

They have

But if they really had 40 machines, for example, then they could produce 1400 LPs a day (35 LPs per machine in 16 hours - 2-shift operation). That's 448,000 LPs per year (320 days).

There are plants out there that dream of getting that qty of records

And if you make a profit of $10 per disc, the investment is recouped in a year.

$10 per disc?? That means that is got to retail at $100 very doubtful, more like $2-3 per disc

All you need now is 450,000 record orders and the hope that nothing will break and the profit will be as high.

Yep good luck with that, OK so no up front costs like cut plate etc, you will still have printing cost as well as consumables like styli, blanks, which need to be cut out of sheets if I have interpreted the patent correctly, they talk about a clear coating with a lesser quality interior, which cannot be injection moulded

I've seen worse financing concepts, but I've also seen better ones.

Sure so have I This looks to me like HD Vinyl, they raised about that much burned it up and gone hiding in the bush

Time will tell,
My view is that they will be at the 10-50 copies max per order, pushing plus that it becomes a different scenario
Why? well some plants will press you 150 records at @ $1500 in Memphis
That's $10 a copy jackets shrink etc ready to sell cannot see how there is a $10 profit per record if it gets past the 50 odd mark since its got to be at around the $15-20 each and people will wear that for a small run, get past that 50 odd pieces point the maths don't add up
Best

[farmersplow]

Maybe I was too careful and hid my sarcasm too much. This concept will probably take 100 years to turn a profit.
About the electrostatic method. I have always tried to avoid any kind of static! But what do I know.
Good ploughing
Thomas

[boryo]

could there automation be some cheap immigrant workers? 'fake it till you make it' way... also, people here are trying to build a lathe for years, how they gonna have so many machines? or maybe a few cutters got together to form a bigger entity...

[PLD]

So much speculation, but whatever... they're delivering finished records to people right now, such as this one.

[farmersplow]

I have to admit, it looks very professional! If the sound is also good, then all respect. My doubts lie more in the business concept than in the motivation and the product. But if it's good for the customer to get 50 pieces quickly and easily, then yes, it's good for the customer.

[displacedsnail]

Hello all, I came across this discussion about ElasticStage on Reddit, and figured I'd put up what the co-founder has to say about their business. I'd love to know what Souri has to say about his comments!:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kunaki/comments/1hcp5g5/comment/m6bqc5v/

I'd like to jump in as quite a few people wonder how we make our records and what the quality is...

elasticStage machines are much higher quality than most on-demand companies that can make 1-10 copies use. We invested over $15 m into developing our vinyl tech, while most other companies are using a Technics turntable with very simple hardware sitting above, cutting a groove into a piece of plastic with no round edges and isn't pitch black but rather greyish. These machines cost less than $10k and were meant to make records for jukebox owners. These records are not commercial-grade. That means their stereo spectrum is not as wide and precise as commercial mass-produced records that you get from record companies or pressing plants. Their frequency spectrum is not linear.

Not to diss these smaller companies - and the quality might be good enough for some customers - but what we have is on another planet, with custom hardware and software that is very expensive to produce and calibrated with insane tolerances. We employ many software, mechanical, robotics, audio and acoustic engineers - some of the best in the field, who develop new technology that didn't exist before to make our vinyl. Our print technology alone costs many millions and produces commercial-grade record sleeves on-demand with a quality that is better than litho-print.

elasticStage is the only current on-demand technology that beats almost every mass-produced vinyl on the market in terms of sound quality. It was tested by all the Major record companies in London with challenging releases, and we knocked them out.

If somebody would like to test our vinyl, the quality of your vinyl will depend on how well it is mixed/mastered. A badly mixed song will sound worse on vinyl. If this is physically possible, we make a record that sounds exactly like what you uploaded. The catch is that you might ask us to do something that isn't physically possible on vinyl. We don't master your record or change it. We do limit some frequencies that would endanger our hardware or make a turntable skip, although a well-mastered track would not be affected. Mix engineers 40 years ago knew how to mix so it would sound great on vinyl. A bit of a lost art today...

Many people have no idea how to evaluate vinyl, and you should always compare vinyl to the final mix version of the artist in the studio (if you have it). Make sure the volume is exactly the same, then listen to both on the same headphones or speakers. Always make it a blind test. Your mind has a tendency to lie to you if it "wants" something to sound better. The closer your vinyl sounds to the original master files, the better. You want to hear what the artist heard in the studio. I know quite a few pressing plants or mastering engineers that strongly EQ and heavily limit a vinyl master record, destroying the mix that the artist made in the studio. The first thing they do is make all low-end mono, which we try to avoid. They would have done that if the artist wanted to have more or less bass or high-end or a different-sounding snare drum. It's a lack of respect by an employee in a pressing plant to change the sound of a record without consulting the band and their sound engineer - just because they feel the record should have more low-end. For what? So they can say "This is how vinyl sounds! It has a better low-end!" No, it doesn't!

We at elasticStage strive to preserve the artist's vision and atmosphere/vibe of the music. We also use the best digital converters on the market and produce vinyl from 96kHz and 24-bit master files, so you get all the finer details. Our platform is not a boutique / hand-held approach. We built a fully automated solution to make it possible for you to buy just one vinyl for approx. $30 with a printed 3 mm spine outer and inner record sleeve. We don't make any claim that our platform is suited for everything and all will sound better. There will be cases when you want to work with a boutique service that can spend many hours making your vinyl sound great. Having said this, from our experience, a well-mixed/mastered song that sounds like "proper music" should deliver great results out-of-the-box with our platform. If you need a mastering engineer to prep your mix for vinyl, the money might be well spent if you don't have the experience.

Apart from our sound quality, the most significant benefit of the elasticStage web platform is that you don't have to pay anything (zero) to make vinyl or CDs available to your fans. You can have unlimited releases on our store. We ship to your fans worldwide and offer customer service if the records get lost or damaged in transport with free replacements.

Steve

elasticStage co-founder

[The Shank]

Hi all,

longtime not posting here... but that thread is quiet interesting.

When I saw this project... I already knew about it because I was involved in the same project a few years ago. It was a failure for lack of investors. This project was in several hands and in the end it was copied...many details are just a copy and paste of what I had in my hands....Anyway.

I was curious about what they do and I've ordered a record to get my real opinion. And here are my conclusions (about he product only) :

- The sleeves looks very good, as good as a one from a pressing plant, but apparently they have insane partners for this...

- The inner sleeves is the same... very good too.

- The center label is also well done, but not as good as the sleeve, looks more like nice paper, not more.

- The record : cut from plastic sheet. Soluble organic pigment for sure. Rounded edges mechanically done but very clean. 1.4mm thickness, pretty warped, but well... looks really good. It came a bit scratched and marked. nothing serious but that's not pro...
So... nothing crazy here. Basic plate. Better products available on the market than that

- The groove : nicely pitched, vari groove very efficient, some kissing groove clearly well controlled. the groove looks very good, pretty sure it's cut with diamond stylus, probably with micron facets. Only a very good stylus can do that. They probably use the same technology than ours for this.
Gooves has been checked under our microscope here... this is serious work, not hobbyist or experimenters.

- The sound : let's be honest, it's just very good. Loud and bright, noise floor is very low. Phase is also very good. nothing else to say. Sound is easily dancing to 20khz without any effort and as good as a pro cutter head. No mechanical noises. Maybe a little something around 500hz... but I'm not sure and need to check again more carefully.

Conclusion : very promising. When they will get the technology and knowledge for new blanks... that will be very very good. no doubt they will have it, since they know how to copy and reproduce concepts.

They won't be alone for a long time on that market for sure.

[PLD]

I have to admit, it looks very professional! If the sound is also good, then all respect. My doubts lie more in the business concept than in the motivation and the product. But if it's good for the customer to get 50 pieces quickly and easily, then yes, it's good for the customer.

The first copy was poor with a muddy sound quality and high surface noise levels, but a second attempt was enough of an improvement for the artist to offer them for sale and his friend to order a second title. So whilst it might be a bit hit and miss at the moment, despite their PR hyperbole, I can see it being a good enough product for most people, and those boutique cutting outfits who're charging 30UKP+ for a poorly made and substandard sounding 12" disc without a proper sleeve may have to consider upping their game, somewhat.

(I'm just hoping the fact that 90% of my work is 7s and 10s might allow me to ride out the storm for a while to come!)

[trailerparkjesus]

Besides the accomplishment of automating lathe cuts, is QC automated? I am curious how they catch surface noise, skips, groove issues, machine hiccups etc... The creator or someone involved should chime in! Cutting thousands and thousands of lathe cuts, I know QC even on 4 machines is a big task.

[mossboss]

Very very interesting, I still maintain that the economics past 50 copies do not add up!
Also,
Assuming that pressing plants with in house cut plate outfits reduce the cost to clients, as well as outside suppliers of cuts and metal work, then it is a case of how long this will last!
So assume a lacquer cut 2 sides at say $180-200 and metal work at say $110-130 it brings pressed records even down to the qty 50 bracket as a serious contender
Do I see that happening? Nah just hypothesising, however it is not to be discounted, of course that's on the assumptions elastic whatever starts making some inroads in the field, very doubtful, why?
Well as the people wanting a small run have already decided that's about what they can comfortably move amongst their fans followers etc so that's the order
Now is the magic of their computer network to spread the release far and wide as claimed adds to that number? who knows, maybe it does, but it remains to be seen,

So lathe cuts small run guys in the local area will remain viable for a long time to come, as apart from this very forum here where, wether hobby or pro we all have a vested interest in the matter but outside here? I personally yet to see hear any conversations chats discussions etc, amongst the people we deal with in the record pressing area
Best

[boryo]

Very very interesting, I still maintain that the economics past 50 copies do not add up!
Also,
Assuming that pressing plants with in house cut plate outfits reduce the cost to clients, as well as outside suppliers of cuts and metal work, then it is a case of how long this will last!
So assume a lacquer cut 2 sides at say $180-200 and metal work at say $110-130 it brings pressed records even down to the qty 50 bracket as a serious contender
Do I see that happening? Nah just hypothesising, however it is not to be discounted, of course that's on the assumptions elastic whatever starts making some inroads in the field, very doubtful, why?
Well as the people wanting a small run have already decided that's about what they can comfortably move amongst their fans followers etc so that's the order
Now is the magic of their computer network to spread the release far and wide as claimed adds to that number? who knows, maybe it does, but it remains to be seen,

So lathe cuts small run guys in the local area will remain viable for a long time to come, as apart from this very forum here where, wether hobby or pro we all have a vested interest in the matter but outside here? I personally yet to see hear any conversations chats discussions etc, amongst the people we deal with in the record pressing area
Best

They collect about 70% of the price from what I saw, so from total of 33.90GBP, they collect 20GBP. If they buy sheets of plastic and cut in-house then i think it is ok. Not sure how much is their shipping price but many sellers adds up additional fee for shipping + the actual shipping price. They say they are in London but we don't know, it might be only the HQ and the machines are in some small town where prices are lower. For example I work in the capital city but my company is registered far far away and I pay 7-8 times less for accountant that I would pay here. Sooner or later we will know more about them but at the end of the day they made buzz, which is good, more competition = better quality