Diamond Stylus Broken

[andybee]

yes, I tried, but it DOESNT work, because the
diamond has no facets.
it works, but you have a lot of backround noise!

as far as I know, "the shank" here in the forum, was working
on a diamond for laquer cutting, but I don´t know, If he
finished the work on it....

[opcode66]

The cutting diamonds have facets.... Just not burnishing facets (the ones that act to polish the newly formed groove). With the natural grain (facets) of diamond im not sure burnishing facets are possible. But i will be getting an answer on this soon. Working with a company tgat does laser sawing of diamonds.

Short anawer, no diamonds are not for laqcuers and would be a big waste of money compared to sapphire.

[aaron]

I wonder if you had a sapphire without burnishing facets if it would cut acrylic (or other materials) better....

[opcode66]

I don't think so. Those materials are too hard to sapphire to make a good cut into.

[jjgolden]

Thanks for the replies.
I heard that you can go years without changing a diamond stylus on a DMM lathe. Is this true?
If so, thats Copper! Why wouldn't it work on the much softer lacquer?

Todd, can your guy do the laser sawing on a diamond using the sapphire as a model? (maybe that's what your already doing..?)

@ Andybee: Did you mess around with different heat settings to see what that did to the noise?

JJG

[opcode66]

I was already told that it would be impossible to create the exact same shape in diamond as in sapphire. So, no.

[jjgolden]

Different properties in the materials I guess?
Keep us posted:>)

JJG

[opcode66]

Correct. You can't make all of the same cuts in diamond.

One thing I'm looking into is if we need to actually use either sapphire or diamond....

Since the 80's we have had a huge number of artificial stones developed. Some are very strong (and resemble diamond). Even if they aren't as strong as diamond, if they are cheap enough, then you could have maybe 3 or 4 made from a synthetic stone for the same price. So, why not? I would rather change out a stylus more often then loose soooo much money on one diamond stylus going bad.

If I can find a synthetic that is strong enough and can be shaped appropriately, that is the direction I'd like to pursue right now. Bring the cost down. Make these more accessible for everyone.

[jjgolden]

Cool.
I'm still having trouble understanding the strength issue.
I mean diamonds are used on tool blades that cut concrete and steel.
As I understand it, these diamonds are grown under controlled conditions and not harvested from nature. So I would think their properties would be controlled,very consistent/repeatable and reliable.

Who makes the diamonds for DMM cutting?

JJG

[opcode66]

I think there is some confusion here!!!! The diamonds styli I'm speaking of are approximately $350 and are purchased from various suppliers oversees. They are for cutting plastic. They are not made to perfectly exacting standards. They are not for DMM. They are made from scrap diamond chips. Natural diamonds. There is no coincidence that they are coming from vinylike in switzerland.... Where most of the raw diamonds for sale go through... Not lab created.

The diamonds that Mossboss and others are talking about for DMM are something more like $1,000 or more. They are made to exacting standards. They are far more rugged. More care is taken to insure the proper orientation of the latices before grinding to insure the strongest stylus possible. Etc. Not the same. I don't think DMM cutters source their diamond styli from Vinylike or Vinylium, etc.

That being said and as I've stated before, I believe that sourcing synthetic stones and using those is the way to go.

[jjgolden]

Why can't the dudes who make the DMM styli make diamonds to cut lacquer with. (To exacting standards)
Maybe we need to ask them.
Hopefully they will read our crazy posts one day and take note.


JJG

[mossboss]

Guys Guys Guys
The issue with diamonds cutting Lacquers is a little more complex
Diamonds have a tendency to create static which plays havoc with chip removal
The chip sticks to the stylus making a mess of the cut
Sapphire and Ruby do not have that issue there fore their use for cutting
I have seen pictures of a diamond cutting stylus back in the days made in Japan which had either a fine wire or a deposited metal bit at the back of the stylus which was earthed so as to discharge the build up of static
Never seen one in real life
Don't think that it was not attempted back than
It was but was not successful for the reasons above
I did hear that the Japanese stylus worked well, lasted a long time etc etc
Cheers

[mossboss]

Just as a bit of further input
Besides the Japanese mentioned diamond stylus on the last post, for cutting on lacquer, the only diamond stylus for professional use ever done, quite successful was for the VMS 82 DMM lathe
Since it cuts on metal it has no issues with static electricity build up
Therefore its use, besides, it was a necessity so as to cut away the copper metal coating on the carrier
It is not mounted vertical on the cutting head
It lays at around the 15-20 degree angle which of course requires a different "grind"
It is also mounted on a keyed holder with a tiny screw which is torqued with an electric motor driven, nut driver preset for the right torque, supplied with every machine by Neumann
The diamond stylus is encased in a metal jacket which has the thread cut into it for the holding screw to go into it it also locates the diamond in its correct orientation in relation to the head
It is different than the normal SX series heads with the taper stylus holder where one has to line up the stylus to a datum line on the cutting head
On another note!
I cannot see why our friend here, Flo, in making the Caruso would not offer this type of mounting on his cutting head as it seems that most people here want to cut on plastic
In looking at the way the Neumann DMM head has the stylus holder on it does not look like such a big deal
Not so sure about how it would go with static built up, but it may not be an issue with Lexan or Makrolon or even Styrene picnic plates as it appears, from various posts here, no one has mentioned this to be an issue
As a suggestion, one may even "earth" the actual spinning disc by some means on the spindle, say with a bit of copper foil or some such means
Its worth some thought Flo and others, only due to the diamond cutting stylus demand here
It is my view that if the stylus is laying back it is unlikely to break as easily as it does been mounted vertically
The diamond for copper has no facets either as it does not have to burnish the cut when it is done on copper
I am sure the hardness of the above mentioned materials would not require it either
Not so sure about a lacquer for professional use though
Food for thought Guys
Cheers

[flozki]

hello i guess some answer from my side is pending:

"I cannot see why our friend here, Flo, in making the Caruso would not offer this type of mounting on his cutting head as it seems that most people here want to cut on plastic
In looking at the way the Neumann DMM head has the stylus holder on it does not look like such a big deal"

i think i wont do.
if you wish you can get for an additional price such a holder. i also can put swarovski stones or turtle shield on the sides... everything is possible.

but. some reasons i wont.

1. i did dmm for years. dmm takes all the fun of cutting.. you can not cut deep. all the cutting is supper fragile. it reduces cutting to an industrial process. one of those not so nice thinks is mounting the stylus. you need a special torque controlled screwdriver. the screw is M1 or M1.2 magnesium screw. not right a standard piece. very delicate. and i fixed some dmm heads with broken screws from allover the world.
2. those special dmm diamonds you still can get. they cost like 10 times more than a diamond from the shank or from vinylike. actually i think it is the exact same material. i visited the guy and we had a long talk, because i asked him if he can resharp saphire or non professional diamond stylii. all the topics they come over and over oon this forum. but he is not that interested. he got his few clients. and as he is (like almost all the guys in this business from back in the days) not in his most dynamic age of 20 or so, he is quite happy with a quiet and steady business. that was my impression. and if you can read the topics here he got some good reasons just to do what he always did.
his equipment is not rocket science all well know technology from the 70ies from teldec. as someone mentioned in this thread before he gets a lot of attention to the orientation and this is one key point. also the time of sharpening the stone.
so back again to reason nr.2 this kind of stylus is expensive and noone else than the few dmm users use it. it makes no sense to put any effort into such a stylus holder.because noone will use it. i guess noone will spend more for the stylus than for the head. a nice concept but not realistic.
3. it is quie complex to do this kind of stylus holder. much more complex than a tampereed 1:20 cone.
4. i see no advantage for polycarbonate or acrylic. the solutions right now are way good enough. if you talk to real pc-masters like dr. dub or others here, i think they cut with one diamond for 20 hours or more. for me the 1:20 cone is great. and if you have another holder you must also guarantee that the diamond is glued in very accurate. this accuracy even bigger names like transco or adamant wont guarantee.

so already enough to stay on my beloved 1:20 cone.haha. there it is even easy to turn a stylus 180 degree for embossing....



f.

[mossboss]

It was more of a suggestion due to the endless Diamond saga here
It was not my intention to "drag you in"
Stating the reasons Why you wont do it clarifies a few things for the
diamond Styli user here
This thread has gone all over the place by the way
Cheers