How To Master a CD with a Neumann VMS80 Lathe

[Aussie0zborn]

Interesting concept... Want a CD with a warm analogue vinyl feel? Why not record to analogue multi-track, mix down to analgue stereo and then cut a lacquer and use that as the CD master like these guys did:

After the record is mixed down to analog we send it to mastering. 10 Deadly Shots went through a very unique mastering process to add to the sound and feel you are hearing. The master was put through a Neumann sp79c Console to a Neumann SAL74b cutting rack then to a Neumann VMS 80 cutting lathe where the lacquer (record) was born. Yes that’s right cut to Vinyl. The last and final step is a high quality transfer from the lacquer to a digital format that you can enjoy as the album 10 Deadly Shots!

http://www.10ftganjaplant.com/products-page/10-deadly-shots-vol-1/

We've heard CDs that were mastered from vinyl before with ticks pops, clicks and other noises but using the lacquer will avoid the usual vinyl noise.

Maybe the professional vinyl cutters out there can use this process to offer "CD pre-mastering".

[gengy]

in 12 years of mastering&cutting only one time I do it...for one particular song in particular project and after some prayers from the client....
However, an interesting sound I was able to capture from lacquer.. not so clean but only interesting.....

[Serif]

I recommend that people only release commercially on vinyl. Then you get the sound of the mastering (e.g., sibilance filtering and merciful diameter loss) without the revenue-losing clone factor of digitally editable files. For what it's worth, and I realize that the 10-footers are trying to be understood by their customers who don't either grasp the distinctions involved, or wish to acknowledge them, the production steps described don't include actually going to vinyl - even though the copy reads, "...cut from vinyl."

Of course, CD's aren't cut, either. ):


Although I like the artwork, the fact that they mention the production techniques at all on the general fan page indicates that they might be the size-queen equivalent of audiophiles. A wise clergyman (former Japanese POW for suspected Communist sympathies) once told me, "It's not how you get there; it's where you're going that counts." (Regardless of what milady hath _said._)

As for the band's name, wouldn't it be cooler to call it something more interesting, like, MicroBud, or 10 Foot Pouchee? Where's the double-entendre, dude? What's so psychedelic about a measly old 10 foot cannabis tree? That sounds downright actual. The band name should either confuse (in a mind-expanding way: e.g., MC 900 ft Jesus) or describe (in a mysteriously down-key fashion: e.g., Plug), no? Just my € 0,02


"Truth is out of style..."



Back to mastering instantaneous acetate injection-moulded 64 kbps AAC's.... from 2" full track at 3.75 ips. (:

(just kidding around, of course...)


Cheers,
Jack Mullinoversomethings


____________________________________
"Hey, you did say, Lathe _trolls_, right?" º\º

[DJ ALX]

Yes, cutting on vinyl and mastering from there gave them the vintage feel they were looking for since they are a reggae band.

Most reggae was only pressed on vinyl so playing reggae and being 100% digital might not be 100% what you want.

The music I make is based on sampling sounds from vinyl and when I use session players their instruments really stick out as the audio is clean when combined to sampled vinyl sounds. In the future I was thinking of cutting on vinyl the stereo stems of the live instruments and sampling them from vinyl as if i found them on a record.

Maybe play the record a couple dozen times too with a hard heavy cartridge that I use for scratching, so It can capture the wear.

Two years ago my partner and I released a digital album and we recorded all the tracks on a 20 euro Technics cassete deck using a Metal position tape. I dont remember numbers but i think the bass drums and the kicks were really hot since they peaked at +5 or +8 dbs. We then mastered the tracks from the tape deck and all that digital harshness was gone, peaks were compressed with a very fast attack and release, there was some tape hiss of course, but the whole album turned out to be richer than what we had before tape.

[dubcutter89]

Why not cut your CD master on a neumann lathe??



Lukas

[Aussie0zborn]

Gee and I thought I was the only one who had a scanned photo of the Neumann DMM CD Lathe. They only made one unit that was demonstrated succesfully. Wonder where it now?

[Serif]

You _can_ cut a (grand)mother, but you don't want to cut the glass, which is old-school substrate, yes? The CD master is not ever cut. Only the mother - which may or may not come after the master and is before the matrix or sons.


According to Neumann, "...plans for a mechanical CD lathe (DMM CD) fell short, because, unlike DMM for vinyl production, the copper blanks for CD prep had to be 100% pure, as even the tiniest microscopic flaw or void in the blank would create havoc on a CD master." [edit: I think Neumann mean, CD mother, here. If it was not so good, it must have been a mother f_____ of typically excellent German quality.]

Seemed to work ok for videodisc, but that looks like coarse groove...
I need to get a loupe.


- Chip Swarf

[mossboss]

Yes Serif Your quite right It was made for very early video disc based on the RCA patents
At RCA was where DMM masters were cut at 400 rpm
It was not digital at all in the way the signal was recorded on the record as it was in essence a 12" record made from vinyl on Alpha Toolex record presses extensivelly modified by Alpha as well as the engineers at RCA
The moulds on these presses where a dream by reading the patent on them as they where made so as to prevent any record produced without dishing or wrapping as the stylus reading back needed a 100% flat surface to work properly
I believe there was carbon added to the compound so as to increase some desired properties
It's capacitive type of signal was read by a diamond stylus which was shaped like a slipper or a keel rather that what we know as a stylus
Of course it was blown away by the laser technology which was in progress at the time
CD4 cutter is well versed on the subject pity he no longer posts here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymAoh7KH64&feature=relmfu
Take a look at this from about 2.30 m and the best bit at 4.40 min odd when the guy is holding a handfull of the copper chip
Well that lathe was not even a Neumann It was made in House at RCA I am led to believe I am also told that the Neumann guys got to read a lot of the patents awarded to RCA over this and they hoped that the tecnology would take off and isnce RCA was not about to sell any lathes to any competitor it was thought that Neumann would be there ti fit the bill
Magic stuff back in 1980
So all these people who think that DMM was a Neumann exclusive it is not so
Here is proof Not sure if RCA sought to make it under some licence agreement with Numann
I would much doubt that Teldec or Neumann had enough coverage on their patents so as to ask them that they needed a license from them
When I quizzed an ex employe about it he said it all went to the scrap dealers
Thats life
Cheers

[Serif]

...
CD4 cutter is well versed on the subject ...

CD4 cutter is working on his PhD in electromagnetism, last I was told. He is also busy restoring some cool lathes. One is the VMS80, which he told me is programmed with land, rather than LPI. Also he mentioned its having the ability, like the Sontec Compudisk, with the ultra-fine automated pitch variation, even for the leadscrew to stop for some fractions of a revolution without resulting in an overcut - just a real tight nestling of the grooves, where program permitted.

Gold-sensei recently mentioned here the operation of the 80's sled being always under servo so as not to risk damaging the feed-, a.k.a.: half-, nut.

Cool maschines - the 80 and (all DMM?) 82.


- Tom Doubt

[flozki]

the Neumann CD Mastering Lathe is in the Show Room of Sennheiser-Neumann Berlin. At least it was there when i went picking up my VMS70 in the 90ies
this VMS70 i bought was modified to cut DMM. it was the prototype with a hand built unit in the SAL74 to correct the angle error for copper cutting.

At this time they had a little show room and the DMM CD lathe was there..

[leo gonzalez]

...
CD4 cutter is well versed on the subject ...

CD4 cutter is working on his PhD in electromagnetism, last I was told. He is also busy restoring some cool lathes. One is the VMS80, which he told me is programmed with land, rather than LPI. Also he mentioned its having the ability, like the Sontec Compudisk, with the ultra-fine automated pitch variation, even for the leadscrew to stop for some fractions of a revolution without resulting in an overcut - just a real tight nestling of the grooves, where program permitted.

Gold-sensei recently mentioned here the operation of the 80's sled being always under servo so as not to risk damaging the feed-, a.k.a.: half-, nut.

Cool maschines - the 80 and (all DMM?) 82.


- Tom Doubt

if you want to have this kind of performance on a scully or vms I highly recommend you the vinylium's pitch system.

i have it on my scully lathe and i don't thing it requires a specific thread desgin on your feedscrew or halfnut to be compliant with their servo motor.

like the vms-80, the viylium can look ahead probably with even more accuracy than a vms-80.

leandro.

[Maistrow]

There is an article on this titled, CD direct metal mastering technology: A step toward a more efficient manufacturing process for compact discs. Audio Engineering Society Journal, volume 35 number 3 March 1987. By Horst Redlich and Gunter Joschko of TELDEC, Berlin, West Germany.

[Aussie0zborn]

There is an article on this titled, CD direct metal mastering technology: A step toward a more efficient manufacturing process for compact discs. Audio Engineering Society Journal, volume 35 number 3 March 1987. By Horst Redlich and Gunter Joschko of TELDEC, Berlin, West Germany.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5220

This paper costs $20 for non-members, $5 for AES members and is free for E-Library subscribers.