Has anyone made metal from a PC dub cut yet?

[djlithium]

Hi there.

I just was wondering... has anyone done metal plating using a polycarbonate plate yet? Is this even possible?
Since the core of an every day lacquer is aluminium is that part of what is required for making an lacquer work for the electro plating process? I was under the impression because it was aluminium it was non-conductive and not part of the process itself in terms of the eletro-chemical reaction. So with this said, if a PC dub can be used to make metal... has anyone tried it? Seems like an alternative and more durable route to acetate coasted discs.

[mossboss]

A very confusing post in its description but I do understand what you are asking
Ok it has been attempted but no results due to the differences in the materials used so as to render a lacquer conductive.
Plastics have been plated for a long time now so it is not an unknown process however it is not the case that one can use the process used there as in essence you need to etch the smooth finish of say a moulded item of plastic than coated with copper sulphate so as to render it conductive than proceed with the decorative finish you wish to put upon the item.
Now you cannot etch a lacquer or a pc cut to that extent as the cut will be deformed as well as introducing very fine microscopic dips and hollows that the play back stylus will certainly pick up.
The rough surface across the whole of the disk that will result in a lot of noise crackles pops and what have you so it is not the way
I am sure it can be done given enough time and effort altering standard silvering procedures making the pc receptive to the chemicals, but I have yet to hear of a pc cut that gets anywhere near lacquer sound quality so until such time as one can get a 14" cut on pc or alternative media to match lacquer i just don't see it
So even the fact that cost ways is a far more economical way of doing metal work nothing has been done due mainly to sound quality.
By the way aluminium is conductive but the lacquer coating on the substrate or carrier is not therefore it has to be made as such, conductive, one does that by a coating of silver.
Cheers

[Aussie_cutter]

There is a process of coating plastic using vacuum evaporation. I understand this was also used for the wax masters that were originally used for record production. Some YouTube vids on early record making show this coating step... for wax. I haven't seen this process used for making a stamper from a plastic original.

The High vacuum required can be achieved with a mechanical vacuum pump and an oil diffusion pump. This equipment is readily avail from eBay etc however there are many safety and technical considerations.

Hope this helps.

[mossboss]

Sure thing man. It is either metal sputtering or vacuum metalising. Both process will do it. One can use either gold or silver and it takes a few minutes to do
There is a catch in this however, that is if you find the $10-30 k for either system to take a 14" disc which should be rotated while in the chamber of course it can be done.
By the way there is nothing dangerous about it now days. It may have been many many years ago but at least it is a very safe process when I was involved in it and that is over forty years ago.
So in the look out for one of this setup's Dynavac is the name to look for.
Now put that against a three headed spray gun and a simple spray booth for about $2 k all up
The point is that pc cuts do not at this stage have sufficient sound quality to be applied to the job at hand
May be if there was enough effort put in the process be ok but let's face it who is going to do that?
The few people we have here it is just not going to cut it Excuse the pun
Cheers

[Aussie_cutter]

Thanks for your speedy reply MossBoss. When you used the vacuum process was that with wax masters?
I'm sure you are correct that plastic is inferior to lacquer.

Other than Dynavac some other names of high quality vacuum gear that pop up on ebay are Edwards (UK brand) and Varian (US brand). There are some amazing bargains in used vacuum gear...but I digress.

Ps: I have a nice early Dynavac rougher pump. Good Aussie quality!

[mossboss]

No I am not that old Man to be in the days of wax.
Wax went out in the mid to late 30s the lacquers where sweeting under vacuum ruining the coating so silvering was adopted instead
The process I was involved with was for automotive components like headlight inners dashboards as well as taillight and all sorts of other applications
Our vacuum chamber was quite large about 10 feet long and about 4 feet in diameter
We also had some smaller ones with a vertical bell made from a solid copper as the vacuum chamber
Very interesting stuff indeed.
By the way I did meet the founder of Dynavac a very fine engineer and gentleman. He has passed away i believe if not he would be pushing over 100 yo He did vested his company to all the employees there much to his family's chagrin quite a character he was.
Very well made world standard equipment come out of there. For sure.
Cheers

[opcode66]

I can get the noise floor pretty low for plastic. But, I wouldn't want to plate and press it compared to lacquer.

[dubcutter89]

would be great if someone would make stampers from plastic records!
there's another topic already with some tests by flo.ka (i.e. the man who is always 2 steps ahead

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2918

[dubcutter89]

this is the right link:

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1666

[Aussie_cutter]

Thanks for the link dub cutter. That is interesting!

[mossboss]

Yeah that's been a while ago
As I have said not enough effort has been applied on the matter
Absolutely no doubt it can be done and done well but one needs to spend
Some time on the process as well as some $ at the end of the day the question remains why?
In a pro environment is not required and the hobby cutters are mostly interested in the steps as curiosity value rather than a commercial end
May be I am wrong and happy to hear comments on this
The point is that if the cut is to go ahead to pressing records from that pc why not spend the extra few dollars and cut it on a lacquer.
The extra cost divided over 150 odd records will not break the bank
Just my view on the matter and as I said I am happy to be given some valid reason to change that view.
Cheers

[flozki]

uups just fixed the broken link.
http://www.floka.com/lofi/lexan_plating1/lexan_plating.html
i didnt noticed it was not working anymore. at least you can see the pictures.

i also did quite some tests in early 2000 when i had access to an edwards vacuum sputterer.
it had only a 12inch vacuum bell with rotation and dc evaporation..
10inch was easy to fix. so i tried with cooper, silver whatever i could
sputter on it.
the thing is that it took forever to make the vacuum. old oil diffusion pump.
and the unit was from the 60ies mainly used for laboratory semiconductors.

every test took around 40-60 minutes. and so i stopped.
i once bought a much faster turbo molecular pump on ebay for not much.
but no time yet to set it up...
i would love to sputter again.....but also need a vacuum bell.


and moss yes you are right better do it directly in laquer.

but there was a time we really had to be frighten about not getting laquers anymore...

hmm. this fortunately this problem is solved. i hope to put some pictures, videos online in near future...

happy cut.
f.

[djlithium]

Thanks for the replies and comments on this subject guys. It's very interesting to learn more about the electro-chemical process. The reason for bringing it up was my concern that other than Transco and maybe one or two other places in the world the sources for lacquers have been and are limited to those and you never know what will happen next in this economy/world and at least having some kind of alternative plan or technique in place would be wise. For example if transco burned to the ground what would you cutters do for sourcing lacquers and what kind of impact would that have on prices/supply?

Someone in the other thread suggested that may if the other side of the PC/Lexan was silvered it would help with conductivity. That sounds interesting. Or perhaps a "picture disc" layer that was tin or some other appropriate metal maybe?

My interest here is to find ways to get the price of getting cuts for mass duplication metal down as low as possible from a materials stand point so that the money can go to making more copies than consumed by the costs involved to get the metal made. If 100 copies can get down to the $499.00 level that would help a lot. I know that much of what it costs to make a record comes from the metal, usually around 300 bucks just for that. So if those costs can be reduced taking down a run of 100 from 799.00USD at Rainbo for example to 499 or even 599 that would be awesome.

[opcode66]

1. If Apollo was going to shut down, one or a conglomerate of current cutters would buy tge business. We have the capital to do that.

2. Or, someone would out together process to make something similar.

3. I wouldn't want to plate a plastic cut. From a perfectionist's point of view, lacquer is superior with respect to bg noise. If we only had the option to plate plastic, more r&d would need to be done to kill bg noise in plastic cuts.

4. People are already offering theor services at rock bottom pricing. Go easy on us yo!

[mossboss]

Amazing to read that lower cost will create a wider market for the product
Fact is that vinyl records to day are at a lower cost than back in the days when it ruled as the medium of little choice that is in comparison to people's earnings.
A visit to Brooklyn phono or the video clip posted here not long ago will show Any one the thousands of records been stripped the centre punched out ground up to feed the presses there
I can assure people her that the distributor will prefer to get $2-3 each rather than dispose of them in such a manner.
A pallet is about 3,000 records at any time there are 5-6 pallets there and Eks again in Brooklyn was run at the same lines for years with 80-90% re ground PVC
Not that this helped them stay in production as it never got paid enough per record so as to ensure its survival.
It is Almost a marginal excersise to do it but its great for the environment.
So where is the argument that a lower cost will contribute to greater sales?
For these two plants alone about 10,000 lb of PVC was used per week with most of it from unsold records even at 50% old to new pressings it is still a substantial amount of dead new pressings.
In my considered view the market for any vinyl title is quite limited by the followers of the band and that is also within a very small circle
It is not often that a pressing run of 3,000 units is done the average run sits at about 300 pressings.
On another very important point: vinyl record pressing was and it is not a method for small production runs. The whole methodology as well as the process including steps and Procedures are geared for a minimum of a 1,0000 records where the initial setting up cost is amortised Over the production run. So saving $70 on the cost of the cut hardly matters for a run of a1k it becomes important for a one of and may be less for a run of 300 insignificant for a run of 3000 units
Happy to hear comments on the above which is on observation for many years over a few countries.
As a further comment in the last few years we have seen the closing down of a number of pressing shops from a very small base already. As well as the increased capacity of some others. What does that indicate to any one? That they area raking it in? Don't think so no one shuts down when they are profitable
Oh yes the demand for cutting lathes has increased lately
Sure 100 square feet of space and a $40-50 k investment provides one with a very lucrative income.
One of these days the cutters will wake up to them shelves to realise that without a pressing shop they are out of the game
And every one out there thinks that a $50 k or less investment will give them a pressing shop where they can make a living Mmmmm
Get an order out of the major plants in Europe without the cutting and metal work included see how far you get
Point:
It is the nature of forums that since they are open to every one and Any one that one encounters the broadest spectrum of people from ones with no idea to the professional and anywhere on between
Should one get serious about certain things posted?
Of course or we than allow the fallacies half true's as well as unfounded statements or comment to proliferate while the facts will get buried of ignored
At least some of us here are able to take our rosé coloured glasses off so as to see clearly
Conclusion:
Keep on posting crap like that while ignorant of the facts guys giving the impression that the prices should be going down guys, it will no doubt have the opposite effect giving the impression that is expensive.
The bigger plants will survive a lower cost for enough time while the smaller outfit will go
Than there will be a few left who will dictate the prices as most will just walk , it will not be a good picture either and it seems to be heading this way already
Cheers

[djlithium]

Hey Chris.
No offense or harm intended. I was just asking. Right now its difficult to get a P&D arrangement so that you can even get 100 copies moved let alone 1000 or 3000.
Things move to fast to move that many copies these days and I don't know of any dance label that's doing that currently.

I generally like the idea of 300 copy runs but over the years we have had to scale that back to 200 and 100 even. 300-500 would be awesome. I would love to sell numbers like that again, but it's increasingly difficult in the least when it comes to dance music. The way I see it though is that if the costs can be brought down a little bit more in some areas while balancing out in others (why am I paying for 1000 labels when I'm pressing 300 copies? and what about the metal.. if I don't ask for it someone recycles it and they get some kind of money back out of that, I don't and I paid for it) and the medium is pushed harder as a complimentary component to digital releases and part of the promotional budgets for give-aways, signed copies, etc.; then it starts to make a lot of sense again for dance labels and dance labels pump out a lot of singles quickly which means more volume for cutters and platters.

Too many of the labels I have spoken to over the last 3 years put the cost of a pressing in the wrong column when they do their accounting and don't understand it can be used as a way to generate revenue in new unconventional forms. I consider the value of a vinyl release as part of a larger component. Not just something to be circled out in red pen, isolated from the rest of the costs.

I'm not ignorant of the work or the process or costs involved. Everyone has to make a living and a profit. But some stuff labels get nailed with for charges don't seem to make a lot of sense any more or are not parts of packages we want or need. If you ask for a change to the package Doh! Nope, costs huge amounts more. Why?

For example in the US I can't get euro-sleeves done or vinyl pressed in sub-180g weight easily. I'm pressing a dance single, not an audiophile collectors edition heavyweight record. Less weight means less shipping costs (not to mention plastic used, and yes I know that this complicates the calibration on the presses, pressure used, time on the press etc etc etc). Anything we can do to trim back on makes a big difference when shipping to stores in the UK/EU. From the jackets to the physical copies in terms of plastic makes a difference when it comes to weight. I used to get some singles from the UK that were very very thin. Played and sounded great, if not better than the heavy stuff (its a DJ thing), and I wish I knew which plant they came out of (maybe CAPPS?) Because for every one of those with a euro-sleeve (no label hole cut out) is about 2/3rds the weight of a cardboard die-cut jacket and sleeve +150 or 180g record not to mention sucks up less space. Since that's all some presses do in the US, that's all I have for options. Going to the EU to press and shipping to an EU store or distributor is actually more expensive than pressing in the US and shipping to them from the US. If you keep it to a certain number of records and the package dimensions work. Once you pass a certain limit it jumps and I have been trying to figure out ways to keep that from happening. It's stupid because half of the customers who bought our stuff in the past as DJs are based in North America but only order from shops in the UK or Germany and save on the shipping of our records and other labels they pick up tracks from in an order if compared to ordering one or two records from us. Anyway....

I asked for Euro-Sleeves from two different plants in North America with long histories and neither of them understood what the hell I was talking about and I had to send them some samples. They still didn't get it (the idea and reasoning behind it). One of them is out of business, the other is still in business but has adjusted to accommodate to a degree these types of situations.

Point is, whatever can be done anywhere in the pipeline that reduces costs, reflective of today's market and no the 1970s/80s and provides a solid, competitively priced quality product should be pursued, not shunned. If I could move 500-3000 copies, I would agree with you, no big deal. But on 100-200 copies, it's a big deal. Especially when you want to run a series of say 10-20 releases in 6 months. Something one has to do to fight it out with the onslaught of beatport frequency, from some now digital only labels.

[mossboss]

Hey man no offence was taken at all, just surprise!
Any way
I read you loud and clear. I can see that you do have your numbers right in respect to what you are trying to archive with your endeavours in your show
The cost of sleeves in the UK is, as we speak:
Disco Bags (Black or White bag with holes) 12 pennies or 18 cents
3mm Spined sleeves (Black or White with holes)14 pennies or 22 cents each
May be you get a bunch of them and keep them for your pressings
And the convertion rate is bit on the generous side as well, however it seems to me that you are facing a price battle due to a combination of other factors rather than the actual records, your issue is, in my view cost of postage/ freight per sale basis spread widely geographically as well as heavy records to start of with
I don't see that whatever I have already said is not applicable
I also disagree with you on the metal work return as well as the fact that there is some saving in grinding up records
It is a false economy in both instances a 200-300 gram stamper set will most likely yield for scrap metal say about $ 3 today
Consider than the cost of shipping it back for a re pressing if that ever happens. At about $10-12 by normal post plus another $ 3-4 packaging materials as well as the time to post office and all that running around.
Also it has always been the case that you pay for what's in the groove and not the groove itself
If there is a dispute over quality the plant has no comeback since the stamper has gone so it is in a way a bit of bad move to allow stampers out If it is a single step process, a plant that sends out stampers is allowing itself open for a lot of potential problems
However if a two step process is the norm where the positive is At hand is ok to return stampers it is really academic in dollar terms
Assuming they are send out with the records there is no immediate cost either way, it pays in keeping in mind the above just in case
A bit of experience as well as observations on the matter over many years lithium that's all man
Any way all the best of luck not much more to be said on the matter it is a case of working at it smarter or find a plant that will accommodate you as I don't see that here is much room for cost cutting in the actual process itself
Cheers

[piaptk]

Tom at Palomino told me before he passed that he had been successfully plating polycarb masters for some who was cutting on a VinylRecorder. However, Palomino doesnt have their plating station in working order right now.

[Steve E.]

I believe Desmond at Mastercraft, NJ told me he has done this, experimentally, successfully. It may have taken some trial and error. And I assume the results were not nearly as hi-fi as what you'd get from an acetate.