New Embossing Stylus!

[jjwharris]

I was having a think about fluids used for cutting, I've never tried lighter fluid (naptha?) But I have had success with CRC, when I spoke to P. King he said the CRC was to remove the adhesive layer from the record blank. While CRC does work well for me, it has the habit of leaving a greasy residue. There is another product available in New Zealand, it's a citrus cleaner, I've been introduced to it through people I know who have to remove stickers from plastic sheets.

I'm pretty keen to give it (and this cutting stylus, which I am pretty excited about!) A try once I get this new lathe together.

Epos, how are you grinding the stylus? Would you send me one so I can try to reproduce it? Happy to pay for it.

[EposLab]

What is the CRC? ..because of this grease residue i remember P.King was washing the disks afterwards using a Spin Clean!
Zippo fluid is very good, is really leaving no sticker residue and makes the surface softer for Embossing. I don't know exactly for how long but long enough to finish your cut!
For grinding i use my mini lathe equipped with diamond polishing disks (n.3000 at the moment but will go higher soon).

[jjwharris]

It's this stuff here; https://www.crc.co.nz/556/6895-b16373ef-5a27-4f69-bf8c-d7fe252ae6ed/

[EposLab]

It reminds me the WD40 (which i already tried but with no good results).

[EposLab]

..well, just before I made two test cuts of the same track "Lovers".
First at 33rpm and second at 45rpm (recorded at 33rpm).
There is some background noise as I used an old 6" disk for the test.

Triangle-33 @0:00
Triangle-45 @1:31

Lovers_TRI_33_45.mp3

..Whats your opinion about?

[grooveguy]

That actually sounds quite good, Epos, especially when I mix the two tracks to play back in 'glorious mono.' That seems to reduce the incidental clicks and pops from your old disc. You do not get the same 'burbling' and 'swishing' effects that I do when embossing. I attribute those artifacts to the playback stylus riding in the bottom of the groove rather than against the sides. I think your sytlus has the proper geometry.

I really don't hear as much of an improvement as I had expected when you recorded at the lower speed. It does sound as though you are not changing the record equalization between the tests, there is a difference... the second cut sounds more 'up front' and natural to me, as though you have optimized equalization for that mode, but the technique doesn't seem to add much 'sparkle.'

Do you have a feeling for how the playback level of your recordings compares with a commercial disc with the same groove pitch? I realize that, at 270 lpi, your grooves are quite tight, which limits level, but with all other things equal, I find about a 4-5dB loss in level when embossing, versus cutting. "Springback," I guess.

Good work, you ought to start making those styli. I'd sure like to try one!

[EposLab]

..it definitely has better fidelity! Better Lows , clearer Mids and more extended Highs.
The following is the latest Slow Cut (for playback at 45rpm) on a new 7" disc.
First is cut using exactly the same EQ as the Cone samples and the Second is a total FLAT . Rest Settings remained the same.

Triangle EQ @ 0:00
Triangle Flat @ 1:30

Lovers_TRI_45_EQ_FLAT.mp3

..well now I believe that the "Flat Triangle" is similar to the "Equalized Cone" (previously posted)!

[grooveguy]

I'm not familiar with the song, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to sound. But if offered one or the other in this last test, would opt for the second cut, the one done flat. It sounds as if it could use some tip-up at the top, but the midrange and overall balance somehow seems more natural to me.

[EposLab]

Yes, Flat EQ sound more natural (i realized it just before).
Kathleen Battle - Lovers (check on youtube)

[EposLab]

..on action.. !

[basplin]

Hello all!
Some of you already know that I was experimenting on an "New" type of embossing stylus!
Having experiments on Tungsten and Sapphire stylus so long I realize the Pro & Cons of each stylus.

The classic TUNGSTEN stylus we all know, is the cheapest way to start with! Mine is 21mm long , 1.6mm wide , weights 0.77gr and cone angle is 90 degree.
Fidelity is LOW but is has a real LOW Background Noise! (Background Noise is something that I really care cause I hate it so I try to minimize the best I can )
Not to forget that Tungsten's "cutting life" is quite Low but It can be polished very easy!

On the other hand , SAPPHIRE cones offers a much Better Fidelity which is really worth! The one I got from Mike is 18mm long , 1.5mm wide , weights 0.09gr and cone angle is 87 degrees.
You get much Better Fidelity when you work on 7" but when work on 12" there is too much background noise , mostly like a pink noise and sometime like screams! I did tried different angles, weight , lubricant solutions etc with no results on my system That was limiting the use of the Sapphire cone only for 7" disks.
Cutting life on Sapphire is longer but re-sharpering must be done by an expert.

Examining Both stylus I was looking how can I get get both advantages with less cons I can, so I got the idea of making a embossing stylus that will use the same Aluminium Shank but instead of Sapphire cone tip to use a Tungsten one! This way I can get the advantage of Lowering the stylus moving mass (which I believe is part of the solid Tungsten's Low Fidelity performance) and also to make Low Background noise on both 7" & 12" disks like with Tungsten stylus! All these lead me to the following design:

01.jpg


As shown you noticed that I use a 0.5mm Tangsten rod. I decided to use this for lowering the most of the mass I can. The specs of this are as following: 18mm long , 1.6mm wide , weight 0.09gr and 90 degree cone angle. Its been almost 3 months I got this idea , it just the last week that I had some time to work on it! So here is the final stylus (also compared to the other two above)

02.jpg

03.jpg


Making the test cut I realize that Fidelity is equal (if not better) of the Sapphire cone! Although I noticed that even Sapphire cones improves Fidelity there is something still missing from the music..well with my stylus is just there! Is like music gets more life! I don't know how to explain but that's what I noticed on the first cuts I done. Personally i'm really very satisfied according to music cutting results but when I will find more time I will make some comparisson cuts (same samples / settings) so there will see what are the real differences!
Please note my setup consists of a Rek-O-Kut Master Pro lathe (V platter & B-5 overhead @270LPI) and a modded Presto 1-D cutterhead.
I like to share this with you and I'm curious of the results if someone make one and try on his lathe!

04.jpg

05.jpg


Thanks
Tasos
Epos Laboratory

I'm super impressed with your stylus, Epos! Sounds incredible. If you ever decided to start making these, I'd be interested in getting one. Bravo!

[EposLab]

I'm super impressed with your stylus, Epos! Sounds incredible. If you ever decided to start making these, I'd be interested in getting one. Bravo!

Please check the latest update with the Triangle stylus shape!

[basplin]

I'm super impressed with your stylus, Epos! Sounds incredible. If you ever decided to start making these, I'd be interested in getting one. Bravo!

Please check the latest update with the Triangle stylus shape!

It sounds really incredible, great work!!

[FFrankensteinRecords]

Very impressed with your work on this Epos.
About 7 years ago alot of us were experimenting with "plotter blades", blades that come triangle cut to a specified degree similar to what you've been working on but with much steeper angles.
https://www.averydennison.com/content/corp/na/en/home/newsroom/avery-dennison-blog/Graphics-Solutions-Blog/how-to-choose-right-blade-for-plotter-and-film/_jcr_content/parsys_main/textimage/image.img.png/1522362427268.png
I seem to recall getting very close to good results with these on several occasions but the angles just weren't right and the taper at the tip was too long. It always seemed that if someone could recreate it just a little differently it would achieve great results. Glad to see something similar come about from someone well equipped to develop it.
I recall sometimes flipping those plotter blades to try embossing with the conical end. Maybe that's where someone else got the inspiration for the conical tungsten styli.
Anyways keep up the good work!

[EposLab]

Very impressed with your work on this Epos.
About 7 years ago alot of us were experimenting with "plotter blades", blades that come triangle cut to a specified degree similar to what you've been working on but with much steeper angles.
https://www.averydennison.com/content/corp/na/en/home/newsroom/avery-dennison-blog/Graphics-Solutions-Blog/how-to-choose-right-blade-for-plotter-and-film/_jcr_content/parsys_main/textimage/image.img.png/1522362427268.png
I seem to recall getting very close to good results with these on several occasions but the angles just weren't right and the taper at the tip was too long. It always seemed that if someone could recreate it just a little differently it would achieve great results. Glad to see something similar come about from someone well equipped to develop it.
I recall sometimes flipping those plotter blades to try embossing with the conical end. Maybe that's where someone else got the inspiration for the conical tungsten styli.
Anyways keep up the good work!

It happened to have a vinyl cutter blade in my hands just when i first bought my lathe (and long before i started using it).
After i started embossing with a cone tungsten i found this blade again and took some time to examine it better. Surprisely is has same diameter and similar length but as you said its Triangle shape blade is very narrow. So i did not spent more time on it .
Not even after dear troll @Fela mention the Triangle shape as he mention there is almost no difference compare to cone (due to plastic disk).
What triggered me is that i accidentally made an Elliptical embossing stylus! Well there was abit more frequency extension and much more clarity. I was so surprised & happy with it and made me realize that with Triangle will be even better. Thats obvious as something similar goes with phono cartridge stylus shapes!
When you want more detail and clarity you go to more advanced shapes:
From Spherical (Cone) -> Elliptical -> Line Contact (Triangle) !

Tasos
Epos Laboratory

[EposLab]

..being busy the last time I found some time to improve the polish resulting a finer tip!
I am frequently asked about selling these styli so I decided to make some first and sell them at reasonable price with only requirement of a feedback report!
I will post at "Classified & Tip-offs" section when ready!

Thanks
Tasos
Epos Laboratory

[grooveguy]

Great news, Tasos! I'll be watching and try to get one of the first ones. Do us a favor and post when you're about to release. This is exciting!

[EposLab]

..while working on my 5th release (12" vinyl - 45min total) . I thought i will check the lifespan of the stylus. Well i have passed 6 hours of embossing and frequency sound as good as it started. Background noise still the same low. I emboss a 2.5mil groove and the stylus is setted at 87°!
..so far so good..!!

[grooveguy]

That seems very hopeful for long stylus life, Tasos; keep us informed and let us know when we might be able to purchase a sample.

[EposLab]

...i already passed the 12 hours of embossing (!) and yes, still sound good, sound is still clear with no noticable distortion. I only noticed and increase of background noise on the inner groove , not that bad actually