Newcomer with some questions

This is a special section, perhaps temporary, to help our man Timmy1 with his efforts to assemble a working 8J10 Wilcox-Gay Recordette for experimental record cutting. The reasons for this will be explained shortly, but please do check in and help! He's a great guy with a worthy project.

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Newcomer with some questions

Unread postby timmy1 » Mon May 04, 2009 10:01 pm

I am interested in getting a record cutting lathe for 45 rpm blanks and I was wondering which one to buy that would not be too expensive. I do not want to press records just home recordings and I was curious is there 2 different lathes one for pressing and one for home recordings. Sorry for the long questions.
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Unread postby Aussie0zborn » Tue May 05, 2009 10:36 am

Firstly, welcome to the Lathe Trolls! You might just a do a search on recent topics and read up on Vinylium's "Kingston" dub plate cutter and the Vinylrecorder and what the lathe trolls think of each of these two systems. You could also buy and old disc cutting lathe.

Cutting music grooves into a blank disc and pressing records are two totally different things. Records are made by compression moulding with steam-heated moulds and heavy industrial machinery. Lathes are not used in this part of the process.

Spend some time going through the lathe trolls forum and most of your questions will be answered in no time at all. If you dont find the answers, someone here will surely be able to answer them.
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Unread postby bancho » Tue May 05, 2009 1:05 pm

It's funny how using a search option / search engine can be such a big problem...
Simply typing "how records are made" in the google can yield a lot of results. Did anyone notice that? :roll:
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Unread postby timmy1 » Tue May 05, 2009 1:12 pm

I saw the detorial on making a record and it said that it uses a lathe in the process to make a master
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Unread postby cymbalism » Tue May 05, 2009 2:46 pm

timmy1 wrote:I saw the detorial on making a record and it said that it uses a lathe in the process to make a master


as a record label owner i can tell ya the process:

the recording is mastered for pressing onto vinyl. it is then sent thru the control board for proper equalization and levels and fed thru to the lathe and cut onto an acetate lacquer as to send enough signal to cut the lacquer without distorting the recording or blowing the cutter head. the lacquer is the first step in the pressing process and the only time the lathe is used for the process. the acetate master is then sent to a processing plant for plating into a reverse image called a mother using various chemicals. the mother is then sent to the pressing plant where they mount it in the pressing machines and use vinyl pucks which the inverted grooves are then pressed into the vinyl pucks making a record. it is then shaved / shaped, then labels are applied to the pressed wax and the record is inserted into its sleeves / jackets - which is the final product you would purchase in the store.

hope that helps :) its the short, short, short version. you can youtube the making of a record and see the process step by step visually. there's a lot of good videos on how to do it on there.
all the best!
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Unread postby timmy1 » Tue May 05, 2009 4:49 pm

Thank you for everyone's help. If I look for a 45 record lathe are the blanks available?
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Unread postby cymbalism » Tue May 05, 2009 6:34 pm

timmy1 wrote:Thank you for everyone's help. If I look for a 45 record lathe are the blanks available?


http://www.apollomasters.com/

there ya go :)
all the best!
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Unread postby Aussie0zborn » Wed May 06, 2009 1:22 am

The labels go into the press and are affixed to the record as it is beng moulded. They are not adhered to the record afterwards.
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Unread postby cymbalism » Wed May 06, 2009 10:10 am

Aussie0zborn wrote:The labels go into the press and are affixed to the record as it is beng moulded. They are not adhered to the record afterwards.


my fault, you're right :) you'd imagine after 6 years of having records pressed and 30 some odd releases i'd remember by now hehe
all the best!
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Unread postby Jesus H Chrysler » Fri May 08, 2009 1:25 am

If I'm not mistaken, don't they make a "father" positive from which the stampers are made... or is that just for long runs?
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Unread postby Aussie0zborn » Fri May 08, 2009 5:57 am

The process is as follows:

Lacquer Disc is cut - this is a positive. Once plated, the lacquer is not usable again. The lacquer disc is sprayed with chemically reduced silver nitrate to make it electroconductive. It is then electoplated to make a ...
Master (or "Father") - this is a negative and can be used as a stamper if so desired (the so-called "one step" process). Once the stamper is worn or damaged it cannot be used again. To make more stampers would require cutting another lacquer and starting over again. So normally the master would then be plated to produce a....

Mother - this is a positive and can be played for quality control purposes. The mother is then plated to produce a...

Stamper - this is a negative. Many stampers can be made from the one mother. The stamper goes into the record press and through the process of compression moulding produces a...

Vinyl Record - this is a positive and for all intents and purposes, a replica of the lacquer disc.

You often hear the term "electroplating" but the actual process for making metal matrices as described above is electroforming (or in Europe, Galvanoplasty, after the Italian Mr Galvano who invented it).

If its a short press run, you might be able to get away with the one-step process but the stamper can be damaged even BEFORE it gets into the press! A stamper can press 500 - 1,000 records, depending on the quality of the vinyl and other factors.
Last edited by Aussie0zborn on Sun May 17, 2009 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jesus H Chrysler » Sat May 09, 2009 1:28 am

Ok, I got it backwards. thanks for clearing up my parental issues.
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record question

Unread postby timmy1 » Sat May 09, 2009 4:29 pm

I have some old 45's and I was wondering if they could be shaved to make blanks out of them thanks
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Unread postby Aussie0zborn » Sat May 09, 2009 9:23 pm

This is a topic we discussed in the Record Collectors Guild forum. I had no idea that unscrupulous sellers "shave" records to make them look new until the subject came up. The problem is that they shave a few thousands of an inch of vinyl off the face of the record and in so doing reduce the depth of the groove which contains vital audio information.

I guess you can do that if you want to cut into vinyl or you can just buy some blank vinyl records. Dietrich here and another troll got some blank records pressed for this very purpose - you might contact them.
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Unread postby timmy1 » Sun May 10, 2009 3:31 pm

how do i contack Dietrich thanks
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Unread postby timmy1 » Mon May 11, 2009 11:38 am

Scrap the last question I asked and he did not have any blank 45's so how can I shave some 45's so I can practice recording once I find a machine.
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Unread postby alienmanstk » Mon May 11, 2009 2:22 pm

sure, shave on! But the thing is, old 45's are very thin already. They are old now, so they get brittle. Youd have to be able to shave them down just enough to get the old media erased. Also, you will have a ton of background noise. Unused Laquers look very shiny because they are smooth on top, without many audible imperfections. If you start sanding old records down, you are gonna get a really rough sound, plus you are gonna injure your play back needle. Why not just spraying a laquer ontop of an old 45? That should work,plus it would sound alot better! Happy cutting!!!!

Hey, why not try cutting on the buttom of a solid colored plastic plate! They write about that here alot, brands called "solo", although many seem to think they stopped production on them. Look around, dull solid colors seem to work the best!!!
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The Genetics of producing Records

Unread postby mossboss » Sun May 17, 2009 12:39 am

Jesus H Chrysler wrote:Ok, I got it backwards. thanks for clearing up my parental issues.

Well here is another version of "genitic" terminology used in the art
A master ( matrix, first metal negative) From the Lacquer, Acetate
A mother (positive) Against the master (metal to metal)
A stamper (negative) again (metal to metal) Here we go, Stampers, Pressing matrices, Disc's, Pressing plates, or just plates,etc (any other additional names are welcome to the list)
The terms matrix and shell was also used extensively for any electroform either positive or negative Most of the terminology was used or developed within different companies as part of their production manuals known well to insiders but generally speaking kept for internal use
As an example RCA's internal use terms of the Master, the first negative was confusingly referred to as a "Mold" from which they produced a "Shell" Nowdays since production runs are sort we also have "converts" this is the Master used as a stamper No mother is made from it
The Germans of course had their own terminology they had a Matrix than Patrix and so forth to help us along with parental issues Pressumably the matrix is from the acetate with the grooves cut in it it will give "birth" to the patrix the negative with "protrusions" on it from which one made a "son" or more "sons" as our Tutonic friends called it I would have thought that a better description would have been "daughter" capable of giving "multiple births" as one had a definite outcome in the process of "birthing" rather than a fifty fifty change that nature dictates to us human beings
Whoa confusion!
In a 1971 EMI print of a production manual for the Plating shop covering all steps of production as well as the formulas used, going back to about 1930 The terminology changes over that span of time quite considerably Some terms are used throughout others get changed and others are dropped altogether A stamper is reffered as a "Pressing Shell" One needs to keep in mind that record manufacturers in the past kept their secrets and their shops as well as their processes shut to outsiders Being here in this forum with the free exchange of ideas one gets the feeling it was always like that, of course this was not the case Most processes was only known to others through patents once they become public and that was some years after the event, some went to great lengths to get around someone elses patent and get a compatitive edge By the way if people think that there was a lot of record producers in the past it was not the case There was a plethora of labels but not that many record manufacturers The cost of entry into the industry was beyond a lot of companies or individuals As an example RCA in 1976 Paid the sum of $467,000 for a fully fledged brand new Neumann cutting lathe about the price of 20 above average homes They also had their own internal laguage One can do that quite easily as it is only for internal use and not the general public The point being these terms are only relative to the people who "invented" them to use them internally rather than for general usage, in our little shop the whole process is "plates" regardles ( young blokes call the lacquers "black plates" the others "silver plates" I tell them the "correct" term to use their answer me by saying "its a plate man" may be in a few years we will have more confused people
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Unread postby timmy1 » Sun May 31, 2009 9:24 pm

I have some old cd's can i use them to cut records?
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Re: Newcomer with some questions

Unread postby L.K.R.A » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:31 am

Timmy1 wrote -
I have some old cd's can i use them to cut records?


Oh god Yes!

Many trolls have started out using cd's as their cutting medium - I did!

CD's are made of high quality polycarbonate - I am led to believe they are even better than the lexan and makrolon brands that a lot of us use...

the only 2 downsides to them are...

1 - You don't get very much cutting time...

2 - You will need to manufacture an adapter to fit the cd centre to the turntable spindle...

My suggestion: get yourself some 12'' laserdiscs and use an original 45 as a template to cut out your own 45 polycarbs, they are the same grade of polycarb as cds

Use a Stanley knife, try to cut deep but don't attempt to try to cut all the way through - after you have made your circle cut, fold the polycarb at the cut and the circle should begin to snap off cleanly

I use a similar process when cutting out my own 12'' discs from 1220mm x 2440mm makrolon sheets - the only difference I use a proper circle cutting tool instead of a record and Stanley knife
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