Cutting stylus life

[emorritt]

Just wondering what sort of average life everyone is getting out of different cutting stylii available (now only from Apollo unfortunately). I've never tried Adamant because someone told me they weren't ground correctly and have only used Transco styluses. However, I've been getting an average of six 12 inch sides and four to six 7 inch sides out of a stylus which is roughly two hours of material, then it's making noise like it's going dull. I seem to remember sapphires lasting 5 to 10 hours without problems but since they stopped using sapphire and switched to synthetic ruby (or whatever the red stone is) I'm getting less and less time out of an $80 stylus. Anyone else having this problem? Should I be getting more cutting time? Just curious...

[dietrich10]

what system are you cutting on?
i was having similar problems due to my suspension not being set correctly. i was cutting too deep

D

[emorritt]

I have a Scully/Westrex system 3DII and 3C heads with advance balls. I keep it set to a minimum groove width of 2 mils which shouldn't be too deep. Also keep the suspension spring set so advance ball scoring doesn't happen. What about rake angle? I was advised to have the stylus around 15 degrees forward in order to cut a cleaner groove. Don't recall if it lasted longer with an almost vertical setting but might go back and try it that way again. I'm assuming that with too great a rake setting the burnishing facets might wear faster than with a lesser angle. The noise is a steady hiss not noise that might be caused by an improper heater coil setting. It started about half way through the last side I cut with the stylus in question - not obnoxiously loud but enough to ruin the side. Since it cropped up mid-cut that's why I'm assuming it's a wearing out issue.

[dietrich10]

I actually received two 320 stylus from apollo this past fall that were not quite up to spec and i could not cut with them.

i would try angle adjust but if this is the first time with this issue maybe it is isolated

[emorritt]

I certainly hope that it is isolated. I'm beginning to have real issues with the quality of Apollo's products. I'm receiving many bad disks and now bad styluses. They keep jacking the prices and plummeting in quality. Too bad they're now the only game in town. The last box of reference lites I ordered had disks with horribly uneven coatings, unacceptable blemishes in the recording area, and even a few obviously bent disks. I've talked with them on the phone and all they do is cry about how "hard it is to make reference lites" - well, I have many old blanks in my collection of varying thicknesses and coatings from the 40's and 50's many of which are very thin (but obviously too old and dry to actually use which at this point I would over Apollo's products), but they're perfectly flat and if you spin them on a turntable the coating is uniformly even and without ripples, pits, bubbles and other artifacts that Apollo deems "acceptable".

One thing I noticed while talking to their shop foreman was that he kept referring to 'their blank supplier' and it sounded like they're getting the aluminum circles pre-cut. This would certainly drive up costs instead of purchasing sheets of raw stock and die cutting the circles in-house. I'm pretty sure that Capitol Magnetics and Transco did this, so what happened to their die cutting equipment? I'll have to pull an old brochure Capitol sent me on Audiodiscs back in the late 70's which if I remember correctly stated that they didn't use pre-fab blanks from other manufacturers. Apollo bought out both operations, so what happened to the die cutting equipment?

Sorry for the rant, but it's frustrating when you have only one manufacturer to choose from and you purchase a box of disks to find out of 25, 10 - 14 disks aren't usable. They do replace bad disks, but they recently sent me 5 replacements - out of which 1 was bad ! It looked OK for starters, but upon cutting it the coating was so uneven that the head was being thrown up off the disk in places by the bad coating leaving blank spots. Pulled the next one out of the box and it cut just fine. I've heard from other cutting houses that Apollo seems to think that any blemishes up to 3/8" to 1/2" in from the edge of the disk are "acceptable". I don't agree. A custom cut/reference lacquer/dubplate whatever you call them should IMHO look and feel like a pressing so I try to start cutting with a lead-in around 1/8" - 3/16" in from the edge of the disk. Most of the disks I get from them can't accommodate this. 1/4", yeah that's pushing it, but I think Paul at Aardvark posted on his website that he's now starting 3/8" or more in from the edge because of the bad quality of blanks. This starts affecting run time at this point which to me is a serious quality issue with the blanks.

I never had a problem with any of Transco's stylii before the change. That brings me to another question, has anyone used Adamant stylii recently with good results? I'd only heard poor reports about their products in the past, and I tried some several years ago but had about the same results as I'm getting with the cutters with Transco's name on them now. Like the song says, "ooooo and it makes me wonder..."

[dietrich10]

apologies for not noticing your reply earlier.

In novemeber I had two boxes with issues from apollo+the bad styli. even a recent 320 seems rushed-not the best looking tip to it. works fine but i actually bought a number of unused older micropoints which have more defined tips. does not help i am so new to this that a tip slightly off make it harder for me align with confidence.

one box of 14" blanks had at least 5 warped. i wont cut on them for clients.
customer service has always been top notch from Apollo for me. lets hope with more demand for lacquers quality comes back

D

[emorritt]

Dietrich, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one having issues with the quality of their products... thought for a while I was just being too picky, but looking at some of the old blanks I have in my collection that were made from the '40's through the '70's the quality is perfect - what's so hard that Apollo can't get it right? Same with the styluses.

I think part of their problem may be that they're probably using people that work the AL Johnson casting operation (their parent company) to make lacquer disks as well, and they treat the process as 'just another shop operation' like molding and machining castings. It's a TOTALLY different discipline and requires full-time attention from someone who understands what they're used for and why pits, bubbles, uneven coating, bends and other imperfections, no matter how seemingly 'insignificant', simply aren't acceptable as they would be on other types of metal parts.

Yeah, I've started checking styluses under the 40X scope in the back where our I.T. division does motherboard repair and the tips and burnishing facets on many are very sloppily done. Rough looking surfaces that should be more refined, etc.

[dietrich10]

Are you getting transco or apollo lacquers?
i started with transco and now with apollo. i guess the same thing?


also i really think you are blowing thru styli due to too much pressure coming down

[emorritt]

I haven't ordered any of the Transco blanks since Apollo bought out Transco's operation, since the Apollo dubs seem to be of equal quality. The big problem is with the reference lites and Transco never made such a product. A lot of my customers love the Ref Lite product, but getting usable blanks is very difficult.

I'm using a westrex head with advance ball and things are adjusted for the correct depth, pressure, etc. Problem is when I put in a "new" stylus, after about 5 or 6 12-inch sides they're hissing... the old sapphire points used to last much longer.

[dietrich10]

How is your stylus head temperature? are you cooking them?
seems odd if you have the proper suspension settings

[emorritt]

I never use more than .4 - .5 amp on the heating coil; much more and it causes the groove to 'sizzle'... (i.e. too little heat=noise and too much heat=noise) Can heat affect the life of a jewel? Would think it would be too hard to be affected by heat.

[7MAT]

I think part of their problem may be that they're probably using people that work the AL Johnson casting operation (their parent company) to make lacquer disks as well

Apollo have always manufactured the discs at AL Johnston, in fact Fred from Transco (before the sale) also purchased them from ALJ Cast.

The Transco discs are a different forumulation to the Apollo's and are the prefered product here in Europe.

[Simon]

http://www.aljcast.com/

[jornibudich]

I am glad I found this discussion:
I started cutting 2 years ago and I am still remembering my first apollo 362 styli... I was able to cut almost 20 plates in my Rek-o-kut microgroove... it has never happened again :S
Last time, I ordered a 362 for X-mas and even worst... I regulated my cutters before with stellites to avoid the new saphire to get worn out and voila... only 12 sides on standard groove from my K-8 and then that horrible scratch and ssssssss noise. I was having serious doubts about my cutting techinques and even thinking the machines weren't working properly... or my dead stock philco blanks cardboard based (which r GOOD).
The truth is that all those quality issues are going to decrease my interest in cutting ; I feel fooled and not willing to waste money... also, by the time I ordered my first saphire I received a damaged dub and at that time, the guy working @ apollo sent 10 freebies insetad... I believe he is gone by now.

[jornibudich]

Forgot to mention: I cutted those 20 plates as a beginner - it was my first try testing the cutter and it worked perfectly fine and the saphire lasted waaaay longer.

[Bodyslam]

I have a Scully/Westrex system 3DII and 3C heads with advance balls...What about rake angle? I was advised to have the stylus around 15 degrees forward in order to cut a cleaner groove.

This sounds suspicious to me. The "rake angle" is usually defined as the angle of the flat surface of the stylus, relative to the lacquer surface. It should be perpendicular or very close. I used to set mine up--when I was cutting with a Scully/Westrex 3DIIAH--at one degree negative rake, so that even at maximum deepening the rake wouldn't go positive. Positive rake would tend to pull the stylus down, leading to excess deepening.

There's a completely different angle that is properly in the neighborhood of 15 degrees. That's the angle between the stylus tip and the stylus pivot point. The equivalent on a playback cartridge is called "tracking angle." I can't remember off hand what it's called in a cutter. Anyway, don't confuse this with rake angle. As I said, the rake should be very close to perpendicular.

You've got a good rig there. It's what I learned on in the '70's and I'm still very fond of them. My current lathe is a Scully though i have a Neumann head suspension and SX74 head on mine now. If I can be of any help getting yours dialed in, I'd be happy to. But email me direct 'cause I don't get on this board very often. paul at paulstubblebine dot com. What's the serial number of your lathe?

[jornibudich]

Got a pair of brochures from my Presto and my Rek-o-Kut plus copies from an old book on "how to make good recordings" (LOL).
They all say that machines like mine should go from perpendicular (I assume 90 degrees) up to 5 degrees up. Dunno if it applies to the big machines you are talking about but my cutters cannot reach 15 degrees even trying...

[Third]

this is my first post, so, hello everybody,

usually we get 20 - 25 hrs from a stylus. thats on a VM80 , using MDC lacquers. the styli are adamant (spelling?), i find them perfectly fine.
my heat setting is 0.66 on MDC's.

[mossboss]

Hi all here
I do not think that any predetermined heat setting makes sense Even in one box of blanks you will get variations in the coating material including tougher spots or brittle bits regardles how well the liquid was filtered prior to getting to the allie plate It is a case of age volatiles still sitting there Oily stuff oozing out etc,etc,etc, We all seen that time and again
Here is what we do that seems to work extending stylus life as well as getting a good cut every time (He He tangue in cheeck)
Use a 2-3 K tone as your cutting input or wherever your own listening range is best
Do a test cut on the very outside with the playback arm on the lacquer, Stylus heat just on minimum Listen back to the cut as it happens
Increase heat until noise level gets to a minimum go a bit past on the pot until there is no further improvement
Back off the curent pot a little and leave it there
Make sure you do not go over 1.2 amps (adamant, micropoints voltage dependent of course)
Do it for every cut and you will optimise heat setting for that particular lacquer You will find that stylli do last longer and the cut is much better than an arbitary heat setting for every Lacquer you cut
By the way Reference lites and dubs have an additive in them so as to stop them getting used as masters in the plating shops (prices)
So you will find that your stylus will get ruined real quick when you use them I suspect it is some carbon black additive that seems to make a mess of the electroform We have attempted more than once to take electofforms from them with no succes We did that as people say "This sounds real great can we press with that cut? It than become a case of What is in them? So we cut a lot of them so as to see stylus life Well half or less so the guess, come conclusion is:The additive is some conducting substance that shorts both sides of the lacquer out through the coating increasing current flow in that spot giving the plating process a "burned" look Need to say when you are electroforming you only do one side of the lacquer However the liquid sulfamate gets to the other side in the baths than you get these "burned" spots in electroplaters/formers terms
In summary You want long life out of a stylus?
Adjust for every lacquer, Don't cut refference lites or dubs with a stylus you want to use in cutting masters, You need to charge for stylus for dubs and refernce lites for frequent stylus replacements and be aware that it will sometimes happen even in a couple of cuts It has, regardless of stylii source We have seen it on original Neumann Ruby and Saphire, Adamant saphire and Capps stylii We learned the hard way (dollars out the door)
Don't bother checking it out from the source of your lacquers they will tell you nothing about it If you want to find out for yourselves Send a dub or a ref lite to the plating shop and see the results for yourselves
Cheers

[Aussie0zborn]

When I visited Transco many years ago, Fred did say that they bought the aliminium blanks from a manufacturer and simply coated them with lacquer. He did also say that local studios would send their badly cut lacquer discs back for recycling... the discs were placed in boiling water to strip the lacquer coating and then they would be re-coated and sold as new lacquer blanks provided the disc was still flat.

I understood the Apollo story as being that Capitol Apollo's aluminium disc supplier bought the Apollo business from Capitol Records and so they should know something about making blank discs.

We still dont have any supply details for MDC Japan. Perhaps Third can fill us in and post MDC's contact details in a separate post.