Kingston vs. Vinylrecorder

[Noise Factory]

Hi you guys, great forum, this is what us analogue enthusiasts need!!!

My name is Mikael, I live in Copenhagen - Denmark. Im currently looking for a lathe to set up and start cutting blanks here. Ive been looking at both the Vinylrecorder and the Kingston. I thought I better get some experience before indulging into at Scully/Neumann etc. lathe.

I can understand from previous threads that the Kingston is preferred over the Vinylrecorder. I have a testcut from Vinylrecorder and emailed back and forth with Souri - It has a really good outpout level (0-+6 dB) but I feel the midrange and the topend is not as intended. Souri said that eq/comression can make up for this.

What are your thoughts? Should I instead go for an older lathe?

Thanx

[Cutterwoller]

Hey there,

It really depends on what head and amps you get from the past. If you want a realy nice sound at not much cost you can use the grampian which is what I use. My dad uses neumann gear and he says that my cuts are almost as good as his. they are very warm sounding and have a great top end. However, if you want to go stereo and alot more expensive there are stuff like the neumann and the westrex gear. I prefer the Westrex becasue they do not have the harsh quility that neumann can sometimes give. If you do go for a Westrex (which can be hard to find) try and get the origional amps because the origianals always sound better. When it comes to the actuall lathe, I think that it does not have to be a fancy scully or neumann vms 70 or whatever unless you want to vary your groove to precise degrees. A presto 6N on a normal turntable has cut many a hit record. But in the end it boils down to what you think sounds the funkyist and what you feel comfortable with.

Thanks Lewis

[flozki]

hello
there is a fundamental difference between kingston and vinylrecorder.

the cutting head.

on the kingston there is a feedback controlled cutting head, a vinylium sc-99, exactly the same technology as the neumann cutting head.
on the vinylrecorder there is just a pair of small loudspeakers forming the cuttinghead.

so the vinylrecorder will sound very loud, but in fact the low end and the real high end is not present. and can only partial corrected by equalizing.
especially cutting into hard materials causes heavy distortion.

with a true feedback cutting head (like the one on the kingston) the necessary excursion is controlled by the feedback signal. so as long as you have enough amplifier power , the signal will be cutted exactly as it should be. the result is much more low frequency, almost no distortion and a highly defined top end.

with the vinylrecorder head you will have a nice mid range, very loud, but try to cut a nice 40-100hz basstone or strings, hihats....no chance.
if you only hear the record you maybe think its fine. but on A-B compare test with the source. o lala!

i know people cutting with a kinston head and tube amps masters for highend classic and jazz records. i personally cut with neumann sx74 and the vinylium sc99(kingston) cutterhead. for 90% of the stuff i cut there is no difference. in some i have better results with the sc-99 in some cases i prefer the neumann sx74.

[Noise Factory]

Thanx you guys for the great info.

I got a cut from Souri and as Flo says theres a sibilant sound on the top-end. Also the bass sounds a bit muddy. I am definely considering going for the Kingston, maybe a rebuild one.

Mik

[Dub Studio]

Hold your horses, the Vinyl Recorder is a really good system. Check out my feedback page:

http://www.dubstudio.co.uk/dubstudio/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=88

and if you really wanted to add a feedback system you could, PM me for details.

BTW Flo, who are the people you know that use the Kingston Dubcutter, it would be good to check them out too

[motorino]

what do you like to listen? a real cutterhead feedback?



i believe you dont understand what is the cutterhead-feedback....and what representz in a cutting system

when you cut in a kingston you monitoring the cutterheadfeedback....do you know the posibilityes for? thats the same cutting technic in all profesional cutting system, when you cut listen at same time what its cutting the cutterhead and if necessary tunning the sound processing

and one more thing, feedback and quality its sinonime

[Noise Factory]

Thanx for your input. I guess its a matter of what you want to cut. The Vinylrecorder will probably take a little longer getting used to and it "colours" the sound, this can be changed by applying eq/compression etc. The Kingston cutter has, I have understood it, a more linear response. Especially the top and bottom end will be better.
Again its a matter of taste and preferences. However your point of view on things has been helpful and if anyone has anything more to add I would apreciate it

Mikael

[Dub Studio]

what do you like to listen? a real cutterhead feedback?

yes please, I would like to hear a cut from a Kingston Dubcutter, and also I am interested to see if any fellow disc cutters are using the Dubcutter as part of a business (please provide website details).

i believe you dont understand what is the cutterhead-feedback....and what representz in a cutting system

yes, the idea is very simple, which is why so many lathes use it.
I have read several AES journals about feedback systems, and I spoke to Sean Davies about it and he said it would be easy to fit a feedback system to the VinylRecorder.

when you cut in a kingston you monitoring the cutterheadfeedback....do you know the posibilityes for? thats the same cutting technic in all profesional cutting system, when you cut listen at same time what its cutting the cutterhead and if necessary tunning the sound processing

Yes of course, again this is a very simple concept, it means you can listen to the signal coming from the head.

and one more thing, feedback and quality its sinonime

[Dub Studio]

Thanx for your input. I guess its a matter of what you want to cut. The Vinylrecorder will probably take a little longer getting used to and it "colours" the sound, this can be changed by applying eq/compression etc. The Kingston cutter has, I have understood it, a more linear response. Especially the top and bottom end will be better.
Again its a matter of taste and preferences. However your point of view on things has been helpful and if anyone has anything more to add I would apreciate it

Mikael

Yeah I think the choice is a simple one, if you want to cut vinyl dubplates get a VinylRecorder, if not, get a different lathe. The vinyl recorder is the only machine that is purpose built to cut vinyl dubplates, which gives it a clear advantage over all other systems.

OK so it doesnt have feedback, but feedback doesnt guarantee you will get good cuts every time. Its just a way of ensuring what goes in to the system is the same as what comes out, but its not 100% fool proof.

Also, as far as I am aware, the Kingston Dubcutter doesnt have suction yet (Motorino perhaps you can help here). Suction helps to remove the annoying (and flammable) chip from the surface of the acetate record. Also I am not sure if there is a heating coil on the stylus either, which helps to get nice deep cuts, and reduce surface noise. Plus as far as I am aware the Kingston Dubcutter makes everything below 700hz mono, and cuts everything above 18khz completely (again Motorino perhaps you can verify this?).

I read all this on the Dubcutter website a while ago but it seems to have been taken down so I am not sure if there have been any developments since then. (By the way this isnt an attack on the Kingston Dubcutter, I just think we need to clarify these points).

[cuttercollector]

Re: Dub Studio last,
The Vestax is not feedback nor are the Presto cutters etc. All pro units for stereo and some mono ones like the Grampian use feedback as a way of lowering distortion and increasing bandwidth (frequency response) and also flattening that response. No, it is not 100% foolproof. There are people who build single ended triode tube amps with no feedback because they believe that "forcing" the system to be flat and linear in it's response thru feedback is somehow inferior to just making it as linear and low distortion as possible with no feedback. Although these amps typically have higher distortion and lower power output, they sound "better" to some. I would have to say that I have heard amps made this way that sound somehow more transparent than a high feedback .000000003 % distortion solid state amp.
The same is true for cutter technology. I have heard pleasing results from non-feedback cutters and certainly you can mess up the sound of a feedback cutter system by doing it wrong. One main reason for it in a disc cutting system is to tame any mechanical resonance of the cutter which would give you a peak in the response at that frequency. It takes lots of corrective energy in the form of amplifier power applied to the cutter to force the corrections. One has to wonder, with modern materials and computer aided design, if one could make an acceptably wide range, high level, low distortion and flat response design by other means than the corrective feedback "band-aid" approach. I would like to see if this is possible.....

[Cutterwoller]

Hey,

Yeas, I understand about feedback about how it stops the head resonating at certain frequencys. My feedback does not work but im currently getting it going. I have put some more damping fluid in the head and it has made a massive difference. I never did this before because with the ortofon heads ect it is not needed. Thanks alot

Lewis (sorry for the spelling, Im still in school!)

[flozki]

to make some points clear...dubstudio asked...

the kingston cutter doesnt have suction yet. thats true. but you need
a regular vacuum cleaner, a glas jar, some tubes, hot glue and in 10 minutes you have added your suction system...you can even buythe suction system it if you dont want to buy yourself at vinylium.
people cutting a lot of dubs will need some suctions system. it makes cutting much more reliable.

"Also I am not sure if there is a heating coil."
everything is prepared up to the mechanics. for security reasons vinylium didnt gave thee heating to the customers. if you have stylus heating and no chip suction. this can be very dangerous. so the idea was. if you need stylus heating, and if you know what yre you doing. you can get it.
all is there. 0.5A power supply for the heating.....
so add it if you need it. a 60W lamp across the plate in a distance of 50cm does almost the same trick.

"the dubcutter makes all mono below 700 hz." true. but you can build in a bypass switch. or even change the crossover frequency, or ask for another crossover frequency. the mod needs one switch, 2 cables and a hole in the front or back. done in 10 minutes.....
on all cutters without electronic depht controll you need to limit the vertical components. otherwise you will run into troubles.


"and cuts everything above 18khz completely" no not true. there is a first order roll off at 17k. again. you can completly remove. or you can change. so there is no completly cut off....

all this was done for unexperienced users. if people want to change i think vinylium helps them to change it. everything is possible. the electronics for the kingston cutter has just all built in what you normally do during mastering process. i guess its the simplest system to cut directly from the source. you can plug in the cd player. set the levels and cut the plate. and the sound is damn good.

[flozki]

to lewis d

the grampian type heads are no real feedback types.
the head is moving iron with oil damping the resonances. silicon oil for the high freq. resonances. dont put too much into...
then the so called feedback coil is more a transformer. it helps to equalize the low frequency losses....

just in case you need to design your own amps that would help much...

[motorino]

you can plug in the cd player. set the levels and cut the plate. and the sound is damn good.

remember the first time, when look the kingston cutting from a cd, without any sound processing, and a track with a lot of hi-frecuency component...her sound are incredible! compare the kingston and the vinylrecorder....are you crazy?

[Dub Studio]

you can plug in the cd player. set the levels and cut the plate. and the sound is damn good.

remember the first time, when look the kingston cutting from a cd, without any sound processing, and a track with a lot of hi-frecuency component...her sound are incredible! compare the kingston and the vinylrecorder....are you crazy?

I appreciate what are saying, but in the context of this thread this comment seems to be a bit biased and mainly anecdotal. I dont think noise factory is crazy, I just think he wants to see an objective appraisal of both systems?

[Dub Studio]

to make some points clear...dubstudio asked...

the kingston cutter doesnt have suction yet. thats true. but you need
a regular vacuum cleaner, a glas jar, some tubes, hot glue and in 10 minutes you have added your suction system...you can even buythe suction system it if you dont want to buy yourself at vinylium.
people cutting a lot of dubs will need some suctions system. it makes cutting much more reliable.

Yeah thats fair enough, its easy enough to do. I must admit though, I am glad I didnt have to go to the trouble. All this is already incorporated into the vinyl recorder ready to plug the vacuum straight in - sweeping away the chip from the dub each time is very time-consuming and fiddly so its definitely worth it.

"Also I am not sure if there is a heating coil."
everything is prepared up to the mechanics. for security reasons vinylium didnt gave thee heating to the customers. if you have stylus heating and no chip suction. this can be very dangerous. so the idea was. if you need stylus heating, and if you know what yre you doing. you can get it.
all is there. 0.5A power supply for the heating.....
so add it if you need it. a 60W lamp across the plate in a distance of 50cm does almost the same trick.

50cm? Thats sounds like a long way. In my experience, small adjustments to the heat of the stylus reduces surface noise enormously which is why it became standard years ago. Thankfully the chip from vinyl dubs isnt flammable, and there is a control knob to adjust the stylus heat so you can get it just right. How do other lathes solve the problem of flammable chip? Is it hard?

"the dubcutter makes all mono below 700 hz." true. but you can build in a bypass switch. or even change the crossover frequency, or ask for another crossover frequency. the mod needs one switch, 2 cables and a hole in the front or back. done in 10 minutes.....
on all cutters without electronic depht controll you need to limit the vertical components. otherwise you will run into troubles.

Yeah true, but each song is different, what if you needed to master 2 tunes differently? I guess you would have to bypass the unit and use an elliptical EQ?

"and cuts everything above 18khz completely" no not true. there is a first order roll off at 17k. again. you can completly remove. or you can change. so there is no completly cut off....

all this was done for unexperienced users. if people want to change i think vinylium helps them to change it. everything is possible. the electronics for the kingston cutter has just all built in what you normally do during mastering process. i guess its the simplest system to cut directly from the source. you can plug in the cd player. set the levels and cut the plate. and the sound is damn good.

Thats a good way of looking at it. Its a good system for avoiding the most common pitfalls and get cutting straight away. Then later when you feel like tackling the issues of high frequency and stereo field for yourself, you can make the necessary mods.

[Dub Studio]

Oh yeah one other thing, with the vinyl recorder you can either adjust the pitch manually as you cut, or add a module which takes the signal and uses it to tighten or loosen the space between each groove, which can give you more space on each plate for cutting, and reduce the need to cut too far into the centre of the record. Anyone know what solution the dubcutter provides for this?

[Dub Studio]

Re: Dub Studio last,
The Vestax is not feedback nor are the Presto cutters etc. All pro units for stereo and some mono ones like the Grampian use feedback as a way of lowering distortion and increasing bandwidth (frequency response) and also flattening that response. No, it is not 100% foolproof. There are people who build single ended triode tube amps with no feedback because they believe that "forcing" the system to be flat and linear in it's response thru feedback is somehow inferior to just making it as linear and low distortion as possible with no feedback. Although these amps typically have higher distortion and lower power output, they sound "better" to some. I would have to say that I have heard amps made this way that sound somehow more transparent than a high feedback .000000003 % distortion solid state amp.
The same is true for cutter technology. I have heard pleasing results from non-feedback cutters and certainly you can mess up the sound of a feedback cutter system by doing it wrong. One main reason for it in a disc cutting system is to tame any mechanical resonance of the cutter which would give you a peak in the response at that frequency. It takes lots of corrective energy in the form of amplifier power applied to the cutter to force the corrections. One has to wonder, with modern materials and computer aided design, if one could make an acceptably wide range, high level, low distortion and flat response design by other means than the corrective feedback "band-aid" approach. I would like to see if this is possible.....

Yeah I cant help thinking linearity often overshadows other factors which to some people are just as important. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the feedback system is also supposed to correct external vibrations too? I like your idea though, and would love to hear what you had in mind. Perhaps a cutting head made from carbon nanotubes would work?

[motorino]

[quote="Dub Studio
50cm? Thats sounds like a long way. In my experience, small adjustments to the heat of the stylus reduces surface noise enormously which is why it became standard years ago. Thankfully the chip from vinyl dubs isnt flammable, and there is a control knob to adjust the stylus heat so you can get it just right. How do other lathes solve the problem of flammable chip? Is it hard?

.[/quote]

your experience exposes to you

sometimes you have cut to lacquer in a professional lathe? the difference between using or not the heating of the needle in the cut of lacquer is nonexistent, single that cuts to it to get to differentiate one cut with heating and other that no, and with many doubts

try to cut a lacquer directly from the freezer, and other no, and ask yourself

the cut of pvc if that needs a very excessive heating, ( photo )I personalmente, my experience with pvc says to me that many differences in the technique with exist which it is due to cut to lacquer (or acetate..) and pvc

I want to stress the good use of the words, a vinyl is not pvc, a vinyl is a disc pressed in a press, therefore they have been called for many years

please, you cut pvc, no "vinyl"

to any thing, nowadays, disc is called to him

[Dub Studio]

Also, if anyone is thinking of getting a vinylrecorder or has one already, I highly recommend getting the precision plate. It might seem a lot of money for what it is but its definitely worth it to keep the turntable moving at a steady speed. Not sure if the DubCutter has one of these?