DMM onto tiny or unusual shapes

[tobaccojones]

Hello all,

I'm Ed Tourtellotte, an entrepreneur from New Hampshire. Most of my career has been in technology but now I am branching out into some passion projects.

One of these projects requires me to print sound onto a very small surface - initially a disc of perhaps 38mm diameter (just to prove it can work) but ideally on the inside or outside of very small cylinder(s). The material would have to be very robust in order to hold up to thousands of plays. The total length of all sound segments would be less than 15 seconds, so I think it could fit. I would also like to cut the spirals so that each "track" has its own starting point on the outer rim, so that finding the right track is just a matter of landing on the right place on the edge.

Is it possible to temporarily repurpose a lathe to cut something so small? I imagine with a cylinder we would need to replace the turntable with a perpendicular turning mechanism, at a minimum.

I am also exploring doing this with 3D printing and other methods, but as yet have found no easy answers.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Ed

[piaptk]

This was done years ago for talking dolls and see and say toys. Len Horowitz who did some of them is still around. I doubt he is interested in doing it for you (and i cant think of anyone else who would be interested without a big suitcase of cash in the mix because it wouldnt be easy to repeat these days) but Len might be willing to give you some insight.

[flozki]

hello

did many strange and impossible formats. from tripple grooves , inside outs owhatever you can imagine.
everything is possible. just time & money sometimes is a downer.

this artist did really a declianntion what is possible
weird 10" record on 33 and the double groove on 45rpm at 7" diameter start.
https://www.discogs.com/release/2027835-Strotter-Inst-Bolzplatz

hand built flexis on cd covers
https://strotter-inst.bandcamp.com/album/monstranz

engraved on LP
https://strotter-inst.bandcamp.com/album/schlepper

here a video of a quick and dirty small record. the punch out waste of 7" blanks where recycled and cut.
https://vimeo.com/125891477

nice examples of loop records i did

https://juliansartorius.bandcamp.com/album/locked-grooves?from=search&search_item_id=718011821&search_item_type=a&search_match_part=%3F&search_page_id=3615868126&search_page_no=1&search_rank=4&search_sig=5d5f22afcb82dd80d1ee1ed0eaadf699

https://www.discogs.com/release/15464284-Various-Temporal-Shift-Irregular-Flux


but can also go on dmm or whatever.

happy cutting.
f.

[EmAtChapterV]

Paul Brekus at Aardvark Mastering can do masters for tiny records and multiple interlaced grooves per record. (He's also the guy who did the 1000 locked groove record.) But it's going to be a lacquer that would need to be electroplated and pressed in order to get a playable result - the doll records were cut around the outside of a standard blank placed off-center on a lathe with the center spindle removed.

[misjah]

IMG_7484.jpeg

I just did a project where i basically cut down to the center hole (on lacquer)….not cheap but possible.

[tobaccojones]

Wow, I knew I had posted this but then didn't see the thread come up - now I see it and I appreciate all of your responses very much!

To be clear, I am talking about a TINY format, far smaller than anything that has been done before. My current thinking is to use 1-2 metal cylinders either < 20mm diamter (for 2) or <40mm diameter (for 1) and... about 1mm or less in height! Luckily, I only have about 15 seconds of audio to cut in total, separated into less than 30 half-second segments.

@piaptk: how much is a suitcase of cash? The way I figure it, this is not going to be cheap no matter how I do it, so I'm expecting to have to pay. Anything would be better than buying a lathe and repurposing it, though right??

@flozki does what I wrote above sound like something you could do and would want to do? I feel like it might require ginning up a custom rig to spin the tiny cylinder and hold the diamond super accurately; or perhaps we start with a taller cylinder and then trim off the unused parts after it's written.

@EmAtChapterV: that's encouraging to hear that existing tools can be hacked to achieve different dimensionality.

My biggest worry is the tiny scale of this thing, though. (Obviously I would also be creating a custom reader/player/amp - experiments on that front are already in progress.)

Do you think I might need to create a new machine for this? Similar to what these mysterious people did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAbI8RAHykY
(I say mysterious because they seem to have dropped off the planet and the one guy I found who knows them won't even tell me who they are.)

One last question: is brass over steel the way to go here? Or would other metals do? Do DMMs use brass because it's easier to cut than other metals would be? Would a brass audio groove last for thousands of plays?

Thank you all so much and I can't wait to hear any further replies!!

Ed

ps: In case it's not obvious, I am thinking to write on the outside curve of the cylinder.
I had previously done some math that told me that my dimensions above could hold my 15 seconds (in about 25 tracks) but if I'm wildly off there, please yell at me

also: If the math works and it can be done technically, then I need to choose between different starting points at the top edge of the cylinder (as the dolls and see-n-say did) so that it's easy to find the start of each segment, OR, if the math works I could stack all segments on the cylinder and they each go around just one time, so no spirals. And I find the starting point by elevation on the cylinder. As I type this, the first option seems preferable for several reasons.

(edited multiple times for spelling / grammar errors)

[misjah]

You dont need to cut this on DMM. You can simply make a mother from lacquer and play till your stylus wears out. I can already do what you need and cut way longer than 15 seconds. You can reach me on my website. Over and out.

[Andrew12434]

Your idea of micro-cylinders is crazy but fascinating! Regarding metal choice, brass is indeed often used for its ease of cutting, but for durability, steel might be better. Maybe try brass for testing, and then steel for the final recording?
About the tiny scale, I think it will require a custom machine. Check if anyone on the forum has experience with similar projects – maybe someone could help modify existing equipment!

Greetings, Andrew

[Mary]

I've been reading this thread and I find your project very interesting! You're certainly a visionary.
I think I'll come here from time to time to see the progress! Good luck with everything, I'm sure you'll find a way!

[tobaccojones]

Thanks @misjah, I emailed you at 24mastering.

Others: should I be taking this to a different part of the forum at this point?

Thanks again to all!!

[rsimms3]

You should search up the thread from years ago of someone cutting grooves onto a glass bottle for inspiration.

[MEGAMIKE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji7obr5ANvs&t=16s
1inch record

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdE3IMXkEX4
and half inch record

I've cut thousands of these and other sizes for old robots ,bugs bunny etc .I can cut smaller like so it goes eternal at the end