New Project- Presto 14B / Caruso

[symatic]

Hi guys

My name's Si, and I've lurked for a little while out of interest, but now I've been asked to help out with a project restoring a Presto 14B.

It's made it all the way to the UK, which surprised Alan Greaves when I emailed him for advice, as they are american machines.

The motors both seem to work, and the lathe mechanism works but there is no motor attached to it at the moment. we can hand crank it for now i guess.

The real challenge is getting the Cutting head working.

we have the old 5C head, but with no stylus... so that would be a good thing to get some advice on and we can start practicing with it.

we also have a Caruso head and amplifier, and I have emailed Flo and he's been very helpful so far, and we can probably rely on his help with CAruso related things, but thats further down the line, as we are basically totally new to this! we dont want to blow up his amazing cutter head.

eventually we would like to have this machine running so we can cut our own dubs and experiment with it. We also run a record label specialising in Skip-proof scratch records, sample banks on vinyl, configured to loop in time with the record's rotation, (like a lock groove but looped rather than locked.)

so I just thought I''d introduce myself and put out a cry for help at the same time

we're total novices, but I understand we have a pretty unique set up here, so any advice we can scrape together will be greatly appreciated!

thanks

Si

here's the lathe



here's the Caruso head and the challenge we have is to mount it to the presto

[The Shank]

Nice project!

What is your scratch label please?

[rsimms3]

Nice lathe!

I would probably looking into some sort of adapter plate to mount the Caruso head. But, the problem with having an adapter plate between the current mount is that you push your stylus that much farther out of alignment with relation to the center line. You would need to move the whole pivot/mounting assembly farther back with the Caruso head since it is deeper than the Presto cutter heads.

As for practice, there are a few options. There are a few people that sell steel needles used for embossing plastic that you could practice with but that is a different process than cutting a lacquer disc. You could buy NOS items from eBay, they come up from time to time both needles and discs. Then there's what the professionals are doing, buying stylus and blanks from Apollo. Other than your pictures and the ones from Alan Graves site, I can't find any others for reference.

Good luck!

[Stevie342000]

It looks to me like there is a fair bit of play on the current head mounting bracket. How you would check that you were dead on centre line, go to a stationers and get some pencil lead. Get some paper cut a hole in it mount it on centre turntable spindle and put pencil lead in place of a stylus.

If you look that the bracket which is mounted to the cutter carriage there are two screws which are in a slot you should be able to move those back to get your cutter head on centreline. You should be able to do this by moving the cutter carriage along the path of travel, needle to say the platter should be stationary. That is my best guess it is late and my eyes are tired.

I would think your biggest problem will be a motor to get this thing to run but there should be options, does it have the motor drive shaft and couplings? It should be no real big problem though, the motor will not be cheap, but a bit of electronic trickery and should get it to run.

You will need a strobe disc of course to check that it is running at right speed there may be other parts in the motor assembly that tie it to the US mains frequency which is 60 cycles not 50 as here in the UK. I found a program called strobe maker which is useful.

A motor that is big enough and quiet enough but Alan should be able to help out with that he is a great help, many of us have turned to him more than once for info or help/guidance.

I have to say I am impressed too that such a large and heavy machine made it in one piece from the US.

What is it's history and vintage? I dread to think how much it cost to get I shipped to the UK.

[Sillitoe]

Hi Si,
That looks awesome!
I would build a new head mount/ suspension with an adjustable dovetail slide for movement forward/backwards.
Bolt it onto the L bracket that is connected to the vertical actuator, this would enable you to mount and adjust any head to the centre line of the TT with the correct head adapter...
This part.

L Bracket.png

[symatic]

Hi guys

thanks for the replies!

So the head mount can move forwards and backwards already by the looks of it, I can just move the part that Sillitoe cropped out in his picture back a cm or so, and that would give us enough room to build a head mount that kept the stylus in the right place....

as for the motor, there is a working motor (or motors) for the platter. they do run on american power spec but we can get a transformer to sort that out.

there's one motor for 33 and one for 45.

longer term I would like to follow some advice i saw from Florien, where he suggested adapting washing Machine motors to run platters on lathes, as they go slow RPM and fast RPM and are high torq.
I know a washing machine motor designer from sweden so maybe one day he can help with that


Could someone fill me in on a signal path for cutting? we would go out of pro-tools which has an external sound card, and we have a C audio 707 power amp (1000 WPC!!) and we have one channel built of flo's caruso amp, we need to build channel 2.

but i don't know how all these parts go together, if we are missing something? I'm kinda guessing a lot of the mastering for vinyl (de-essing, riaa, mono bass) can be done in our DAW? is this against the rules?

The history of the lathe I only know a little bit - but it came to the uk via germany, and the shipping over the atlantic only ever happened because of some very lucky circumstances!
Alan was also surprised it was here, and said we were very lucky to have it. He was the only person on the internet with a picture of a 14B so i emailed him!



oh and for The Shank, my label is called Cut & Paste Records, here's a link to our web shop.

http://cutandpasterecords.bigcartel.com/

[Sillitoe]

Oh yeah, I guess that big knob at the front moves the head mount forward and backwards (y axis), correct?

This was the chain that Flo used for my Caruso test tracks- Cheap setup.

macbook with audacity
Maudio Fasttrack pro usb
behringer ultracurve first version as EQ
carusopreamps version 1.2
QSC GX3
Cable with 0.63 fast fuse and RC circuit in series
Caruso Nr.133

No rules man!!!

[Sillitoe]

Oh... having looked at it again- is the big knob at the front used to move the cutter head along the lead screw (x-axis haha), to the start position etc?

[The Shank]

http://cutandpasterecords.bigcartel.com/

Ok thanks! If you're in this scratch game, I guess you know Le Jad?

[symatic]

http://cutandpasterecords.bigcartel.com/

Ok thanks! If you're in this scratch game, I guess you know Le Jad?

i do! he very kindly supported my last record by doing the mastering. so youre a scratch nerd too?

[Stevie342000]

Ah I see it has the motors, so it is a later model than others in the Presto Range as it is only 2 speed not 3 speed.

If it has the motors you could use an inverter but finding one that is big enough may be the issue, I was going to mention washing machine motors but thought you might find it a step too far.

Either way the original motors will run on 60 cycles, so your speed may be out, it needs to run on 50 cycles, I am sure you will figure it out.

You should have no problem mounting any cutter head on this machine as it is, you might need a new L bracket as that looks like a standard Presto mounting plate. But aside from that little needs to be changed. You may get away with running the motors on UK mains with a step down transformer. You may need to get some of the spindles re-made so your are running at the right speed.

If you find you can stick with the original motors and all is running on speed (you will figure out what needs to be changed to get to that point) you will still need to change the motor run capacitors, there may be a start capacitor as well. As they are tied to the mains frequency and the motors will run hot or not start if they are of the wrong value, it will be in a manual and failing that Alan Graves should be able to help.

Nice lathe I have to say, what LPI does it go from and too? I am off now to have a look at what the Presto site says and what information is in my 1947 Presto catalogue.

[The Shank]

http://cutandpasterecords.bigcartel.com/

Ok thanks! If you're in this scratch game, I guess you know Le Jad?

i do! he very kindly supported my last record by doing the mastering. so youre a scratch nerd too?

Yes I am haha! I produced several scratch records on my label few years ago when I had a cutting studio... And Jad is one of my best friend. We did a lot of scratch records for the DMC
Jad did the production, I did the mastering and cut (Netik, Rafik, Unkut, Fly and more more more...)

[symatic]

Yes I am haha! I produced several scratch records on my label few years ago when I had a cutting studio... And Jad is one of my best friend. We did a lot of scratch records for the DMC
Jad did the production, I did the mastering and cut (Netik, Rafik, Unkut, Fly and more more more...)

ah cool. nice to meet you! which records did you do then? maybe i own them

You should have no problem mounting any cutter head on this machine as it is, you might need a new L bracket as that looks like a standard Presto mounting plate. But aside from that little needs to be changed. You may get away with running the motors on UK mains with a step down transformer. You may need to get some of the spindles re-made so your are running at the right speed.

If you find you can stick with the original motors and all is running on speed (you will figure out what needs to be changed to get to that point) you will still need to change the motor run capacitors, there may be a start capacitor as well. As they are tied to the mains frequency and the motors will run hot or not start if they are of the wrong value, it will be in a manual and failing that Alan Graves should be able to help.

Nice lathe I have to say, what LPI does it go from and too? I am off now to have a look at what the Presto site says and what information is in my 1947 Presto catalogue.

[/quote][/quote]


yes i'm hoping a transformer will sort our motors out.... I don't know about spindles? can you explain? sorry - noob here

also the capacitors you mentioned... do you mean some capacitors to help start up the motor to move the heavy platter?

as for LPI - it has a gear box to switch LPI, and this part of the lathe can be attached to a motor, it has a shaft ready to do that with, so hopefully we can incorporate some sort of pitch control computer.....

[Stevie342000]

You should have no problem mounting any cutter head on this machine as it is, you might need a new L bracket as that looks like a standard Presto mounting plate. But aside from that little needs to be changed. You may get away with running the motors on UK mains with a step down transformer. You may need to get some of the spindles re-made so your are running at the right speed.

If you find you can stick with the original motors and all is running on speed (you will figure out what needs to be changed to get to that point) you will still need to change the motor run capacitors, there may be a start capacitor as well. As they are tied to the mains frequency and the motors will run hot or not start if they are of the wrong value, it will be in a manual and failing that Alan Graves should be able to help.

Nice lathe I have to say, what LPI does it go from and too? I am off now to have a look at what the Presto site says and what information is in my 1947 Presto catalogue.

[/quote]yes i'm hoping a transformer will sort our motors out.... I don't know about spindles? can you explain? sorry - noob here

also the capacitors you mentioned... do you mean some capacitors to help start up the motor to move the heavy platter?

as for LPI - it has a gear box to switch LPI, and this part of the lathe can be attached to a motor, it has a shaft ready to do that with, so hopefully we can incorporate some sort of pitch control computer.....[/quote]


Yes I went to the Presto website and found out that it has a number of groove pitches which can be selected by a lever. What are those ranges/groove pitch options?

Yes I did mean the capacitors which help to start the motor, the weight of the platter is not very relevant if the motor will not start because the capacitor is the wrong value Ask Alan he may tell you what the right value is for 50 hz mains. Has he got a manual or did you say you had one already? This would be useful if you could get one. It will tell you lots more about how to set the machine up than most of us.

As for spindles read as shaft for example in an idler wheel turntable or cutter lathe there is a spindle (usually attached the motor) which may have a step or two in it, then a rubber idler which will be pinched between the selected step on the motor shaft and the rim of the turntable. If there is anything like that in the system that drives the platter then they may be for 60 Hz mains, you would need to get new ones machined, the percentage overrun would be 17%, slow or fast I think former. Never had to deal with it, I only know it is an issue.

The Presto 14B is direct drive from the motors to the coupling shaft that drives the motors, there will be gears in there, which would probably have been what Presto would have changed to run the machine on UK mains and the motor run or start capacitors. Those gears which will be encased (sealed unit) may need new bearings etc etc Again ask Alan he is the best go to guy for this.

You may find that if the machine was in Germany that these modifications will have been made already, you will not know for certain until you fire it up and use a strobe disc to determine if it is a 60 Hz or a 50 Hz machine.

One word of warning if any of those motor run capacitors are oozing a black substance then do not get it on you hands they are PCBs, you will definitely need to replace them if they are leaking. I am only guessing that there are motor run capacitors in the base unit, the motors might state the value for 50 Hz operation.

You will figure it out it is a really nice machine I have to say, from what I have determined it came out in or around 1951, it is not in my Presto catalogue which is from 1947.

You should have no problems getting it to work with a Caruso, incidentally I am assuming that the machine has two speeds and that they are 45 rpm and 33 1/3 rpm. Or is it a 78 rpm 33 1/3 rpm machine, still possible as microgroove had not been around long at that point but I personally think that it is a machine designed for cutting long playing discs.

Any way have fun and keep us posted, that machine is in very good condition as well, but then most of the kit from that era was well built and designed to be run for hours on end, without issue.

[symatic]

here are the LPI settings on the gearbox of the lathe.


as for the motors, there is one for 45, one for 33, and they seem to be mounted directly to the shaft but there is a fly wheel looking thing there too, haven't investigated that much!

i have no documentation at all, and alan said he doesnt think there is much if any....

[Stevie342000]

Thanks for the picture, is it possible to change the screw thread shaft on a Presto 14B, as those LPI are barely into the long playing area. I have a feeling that the default LPI for 45 rpm is 154 LPI and that you should be looking at 225 LPI for 33 1/3 rpm.

That odd thing is the coupling in that will be a couple of gears from the motors and then the other gear which will transfer movement from horizontal (motor turning) to vertical movement, which in turn spins the platter.

Those LPI do seem very low for long playing discs. On the Presto 6N you can change the shafts so you can cut different LPI, like the Presto 14B they are fixed pitch. Is it possible to change that screw thread on the cutter carriage?

[symatic]

i tihnk the gear box behind this lever i posted the picture of is only attached to a drive-shaft that is totally separate from the platter motor. this would have been controlled by a separate motor i think so we were planning on just attaching a motot and controoling it with some sort of arduino type box to control the LPI.

am i right in thinking that just turning the screw slowly would get tighter groove spacing?

i dont know how easy changing the screw thread would be.....

[Sillitoe]

Hi Si,
Yeah, the slower the screw turns, the tighter the groove spacing.

Here is a calculation http://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4119&p=25087&hilit=pitch+rpm+calculation#p25087

And here are some great charts http://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=824&start=20#p30702

[symatic]

awesome, thanks for saving me digging through loads of forum threads

[symatic]

Just an update - We moveed the lathe to it's new home, and it all went pretty well, we have now got to work out how to get this thing up and running again!