Mss direct acetate lathe

[plasticpig850]

Hello to all ,I'm new to lathe trolls,just wondering if somebody can help me,I'd like to know if anyone can tell me the idea of pivoting the cutterhead ,and what adjusts the arm /head for cutting onto polycarbonate/acetate, as I'm not doing that well,and ruining blank's, I dare say it'll all make sense once I know,my machine is a Mss direct acetate cutting lathe, 1959?? I think,many thanks plasticpig850

[studiorp]

Hi, welcome in forum.
For start, can you post here some pics of your lathe ? Mss machines are rare to find ...
Thanks.

[plasticpig850]

IMG_20160111_174350.jpg

Hi studiorp,
Yes these machines are ,but I'm convinced information about them even less, but saying that, Norman field ,who can be found on YouTube cutting polycarbonate 78's on a mss older than mine very interesting here are a few pictures

IMG_20160111_174350.jpg

[studiorp]

Hi, thanks for photos. If you want know more on your machine, contact Stevie342000 inside forum.

[Stevie342000]

Hi, thanks for photos. If you want know more on your machine, contact Stevie342000 inside forum.

Roger over and out just checking in, if I remember this item was for sale on eBay on and off for some time.

To be honest I do not know much about these machines however I do have a copy of a user manual somewhere.

I can tell you this must have been one of the last ones made, it should have KT88s as the output tubes not 6550 (which is the American equivalent). Which kind of dates the item as KT88s were not issued until 1957. MSS was sold to EMI in or around 1961 - I suspect EMI then closed down the production as they already manufactured cutting lathes (the Beatles demo disc in Liverpool was cut on one of those). EMI was buying up lots of electronics companies mostly for the patents, then stripping the assets end result shutting down production. The GPO (post office) sold it around late 40s or mid-50s perhaps later, I do not remember.

Cecil Watts the founder had a number of issues just prior to WWII with some blanks he sold to the BBC (Batch Quality Control) MSS almost went bust, they just about made it through their troubles when WWII broke out. They had to fix their prices for the duration and they were taken over (subsidised) by government funding through the GPO, essentially the GPO was in charge. All there work was for the government and the BBC essential to the war effort.

After the war having been forced into rapid expansion (there original site was at Shaftsbury Avenue in London (where he developed the first recorder and acetate discs which he sold to the BBC) they then moved to Kew Bridge in London where they got bombed hence the move out of London and the expansion), taking loans etc and new premises out near Heathrow air port now, the GPO wanted shot of the company. Cecil Watts was forced to have them as the boss of his own company he eventually left in or around 1953. He was held under contract for 2 years that any invention he came up with be owned by MSS. So he went off to run a cafe/tea house, he worked away on some odds and ends coming up with the Dustbug.

He sat on any of his ideas or designs and his friends in Wireless World gave it a write up in the magazine the rest is history. I think he did some omni-directional speakers as well there are patents you just have to look in the right place for them.

My advice is to get some of Jerry's steel styli see classifieds to figure out how it works. Strip down carefully and oil what needs to be oiled. This should be built like a tank, it is not a dissimilar design to the Sugden cutting lathes I have only this is not varigroove.

How many speeds you got on that turntable? You should have all 3 as it appears the deck matches the cutting amplifier. I suspect but am not sure that you change a pinch roller that engages with the out rim of the turntable or you need to add a wider shaft to the capstan (which is how the Sugden does with 33 1/3 being the default speed). When that first came up for auction it did have the replay arm on, very nice modern looking for its time S-shaped gimbal pivot advanced for its day.....remember the arm is pre SME which did not come out until 1960.

You will have to bear with me for me to find the manual, I got a copy off a guy on eBay who sold a similar one with the PMR3 tape deck.

I have a feeling the design of this model is the same as the one sold to the BBC in 1930 early odd, it never changed, the BBC in the early 1940s came up with the DRD5 which did not go into full production until near the end of the war or just after, along with Grampian heads (which were made by Moy but later badged Grampian, it is possible that MSS manufactured the BBC machines. MSS moved into the tape manufacturing industry very early on circa 1950 as well as making tape machines. Tape production ceased around the mid 1970s and thus as far as I know MSS ceased trading.

Steve in the UK

[Stevie342000]

Hi, thanks for photos. If you want know more on your machine, contact Stevie342000 inside forum.

Just remember you might find this of use, it's off the bbceng.info website:

http://www.bbceng.info/ti/early/Watts%20Disc%20Recording%20Machine.pdf

It's from 1938, it is a beefed up version of your machine, the head pivot is covered in there. As I suspected it is very similar to the later bbc design.

http://www.bbceng.info/ti/non-eqpt/TI_R1_BBC%20Disc%20Reproducing%20Equipment%20Type%20D.pdf

And I am pretty sure MSS designed and made this one for the BBC as well during the War no tape but those correspondents had to do it somehow and this is how they did it:

http://www.bbceng.info/ti/non-eqpt/TI_R3_BBC%20Portable%20Disk%20Recording%20Equipment.pdf


This one is for the Presto 6N and 8: http://www.bbceng.info/ti/non-eqpt/TI_R4_Presto%20Recording%20Equipment.pdf

Hope that helps

Steve in the UK

[plasticpig850]

Hi Stevie 3420000,thanks for all information, I was wondering how to get 45and 78rpm I'll have to look into that,yes its as you say built like a tank,valves are American, but I do have some kt88,,the amp is military so I'm told,it will be nice to see a manual on this lathe,

[plasticpig850]

Hi yes this cutter was on eBay I know it was listed a few time's, also this is only 33rpm at moment, hoping i can cut at 45 eventually also,I think adding to the drive shaft maybe easier than changing idler wheels,

[Stevie342000]

Hi yes this cutter was on eBay I know it was listed a few time's, also this is only 33rpm at moment, hoping i can cut at 45 eventually also,I think adding to the drive shaft maybe easier than changing idler wheels,

It should not be that difficult to get the turntable to spin at alternative speeds. There are a number of options:

1. Additional Capstan shafts which will need to be high tolerance.

It should not be difficult to figure out the diameter of the new slide on shafts, the formula is not in my head it is on here or a simple google search should come up with the answer. I would imagine the speed of the motor would be 1500 rpm, it should be on the motor nameplate.

2. there is the electronic speed control method, it is after all an AC motor so you change the frequency to change the speed.

Both the formula and the electronic speed control are on here for the latter you could try Lenco Heaven as well.

Do try to get some of Jerry's steel styli to practice with it will save you a lot of money, as for blanks and jewelled cutting styli there are sources on here, see advertisements, classifieds. As you are in Europe there is The Shank in France cuts down on import costs.

All of which is determined by what you want and what you bought the MSS cutting lathe for. I am pretty sure I have the user manual for your lathe but until I find it I can not be sure.

The Amp is a good one, make sure that it has been checked over, it has a built in meter to check bias, voltages on the various valves, it has a Partridge output transformer if you blow that expect a hefty bill to replace it or to have it rewound. I assume the amplifier works in Cathode Bias? That transformer and the output tubes suggests that the amplifier is 50 to 100 watts output.

The amplifier may be a one off and was made by whoever bought the cutting lathe or it could the last in the MSS top of the line cutting lathe amplifiers. Lots of people made their own equipment but given the colour of the chassis on this amplifier and the cutting lathe I suspect it is an MSS design.

Will search out the MSS documents that I have and get them too you as soon as I can.

[plasticpig850]

Hi Steve, thanks for all your information, this is fantastic as you know there's not even a real basic info on the net,my electronics's friend in lancing,UK.says amp is 100watts as I let him look it over before I took it home,totally save to use as well as deck,are these styli from jerry in the U.S.A.I'll be checking into your information about speed change etc later this afternoon, really good of you to help, Thanks again

[Stevie342000]

I would go so far as to suggest that the circuit for the power amplifier will be a modification the GEC 100 Amplifier circuit. If it is the 100 circuit then if memory serves right that will be a fixed bias circuit. I assume he told your or showed you how to set the bias? Something Like 60mA should be fine, however there should marks on the meter which indicate the correct operating parameters for each valve.

Yes the steel styli are from Jerry in the USA, they were for sale on eBay, just a simple search. If you google The Shank hopefully you will come up with the right sight a www. in front should help.

It is a while since I looked at the Portable MSS wartime documents from the BBC but I suspect it offers more than a passing resemblance to the MSS cutting lathe in the Advert. All of it should help anyhow they are common parts and ideas. You should be able to figure out how to use it best.

I would go so far to suggest that you learn how to use it making 78s and once you got that off pat then you will have a reference point if you go down the I want additional speed routes whether you go the mechanical or electrical use.

I should be simple enough to work out with simple maths, if you know the diameter of the 78 rpm capstan (sleeve) and you work out what % 45 or 33.33 is of 78 you should then be able to work out the diameter needed for each speed.

It surprises me that the additional capstans are missing? Are you sure that there is not a belt that you need to move to another pulley underneath the chassis? The electronics are designed for LP and 78 rpm discs, the good thing it is post 1955 so it should RIAA compatible.

I am not sure what your knowledge level is but the standard advise is read, read, read and read. Did you get the book mentioned in the classifieds? That is useful and is recommended reading. Either way you will figure it out through trial, error and experience. There should be nothing in this either the electronics or the cutting lathe itself that you can not repair or replace.

Other than keep a diary of what you do and the results would be useful of course document and publish your findings here if you wish, there are and will be others with similar machines that can use it in the future. There is no advantage in people trying to re-invent the wheel or figuring out how a particular machine works.

They are all the same, the turntable rotates, the cutter traverses the disc at a tangent and the cutter scribes a groove in the cutting medium. Some machines enable you to scroll the cutter carriage so you can cut lead-in, lead-out and banding between tracks, some not. I have a feeling it may be semi automatic on your lathe. It was a highly accomplished design but then again it may be completely manual.

Steve in the UK
PS where are you located? I am in Manchester England.

[emidisc]

I also own the MSS portable lathe, I managed to get the thing running but wasn't impressed with the lathe to be honest & have since canablised some of the parts for other projects,
The cutter head is a pretty robust & easy to work on should it be required.
I have attached below some photos of the workings of the cutter head when I first acquired it, the additional red coil and circuit items are to apply a specific EQ this head requires.
Good Luck
Emidisc

[emidisc]

And another one......

[plasticpig850]

Hi emidisc thanks for photos and message, nice to see the inside of cutterhead, quite amazing for what it does,I was speaking to Norman Field (you might know him )he has a mss lathe for cutting 78s on polycarbonate, he said he took coils out the head to lighten head , if his YouTube video is anything to go by the recording sounded really good

[Stevie342000]

Hi emidisc thanks for photos and message, nice to see the inside of cutterhead, quite amazing for what it does,I was speaking to Norman Field (you might know him )he has a mss lathe for cutting 78s on polycarbonate, he said he took coils out the head to lighten head , if his YouTube video is anything to go by the recording sounded really good

Those additional coils will be there to sort out the equalisation and any lumps or bumps in the head response. You do not really need them in the head, they could be place elsewhere.

In Sugden (Connoisseur) varigroove lathe I have one with the equalisation circuit in it and the other does not have it but it never was in the head. It will probably be there in the MSS for the same reason to tame the main resonant frequency. You have to remember that the MSS is pre-RIAA so it will have its own equalisation requirements. Or at least the original design was Pre-RIAA.

[plasticpig850]

hi silly question maybe???? do i really need to have heater to cutting needle. as a newbie i know not,asking as attempting to cut/emboss on polycarbonate ,think ive the depth???nice grooving,no music just horrible noise of cutting into disc on playback is cutterhead to heavy or maybe something else.

[Stevie342000]

hi silly question maybe???? do i really need to have heater to cutting needle. as a newbie i know not,asking as attempting to cut/emboss on polycarbonate ,think ive the depth???nice grooving,no music just horrible noise of cutting into disc on playback is cutterhead to heavy or maybe something else.

Not an expert on this but I have a few ideas on what might be the problem. This machine has probably not been used in years. I would suggest you dismantle it piece by piece take photos document it as you go post your progress on here to guide others as you will not have the only machine. Additionally speak to the 78 RPM guy you mentioned.

Clean the parts especially the outer rim of the platter, the rubber capstan (be careful what you use with that - do some on-line research - I suggest you look at the same chemicals as used for cleaning capstan of a reel to reel tape recorder - try an eBay search on Lubrication or Service kit for a Revox G36).

Make sure that the guide rails and the lead screw are scrupulously clean. You do not have to go as far as stripping down the motor. Check any bearings etc but do it one piece at a time. You may be missing movement.

The other issue might be that there is not enough signal or movement in the cutter head due to lack or use or age. Make sure you put a fuse in series with the cutter head 2-500mA should do it. You really do not want to burn out the cutter head.

Take it easy and slowly get the books that are mentioned in Classifieds and there is another book in Resources as well which should give you the basics on cutting discs.

You should install a heater system for a heated stylus it makes cutting easier but try to get in the ball park area without, just practice and practice. PS if you are using one of Jerry's Steel styli you can not use a heater system unless you find some ceramic paste you cut put on the shaft of the stylus to insulate it....OK.

[plasticpig850]

Hello Stevie 342000,I'm really grateful for all your information and help,I'm going to do what you suggested, its going to take a bit of time ,what with work,etc(not to mention nerves)I also contacted my friend Norman who cuts the 78's,he's thinking there's something wrong with cutterhead, I've posted cutterhead of to him today,he's going to give it the once over,and check my cutterhead on his Mss,finger's crossed, my friend in lancing Sussex has his own electrical repair shop ,he's going to fit something so I can change frequency between 45 & 33,I can't wait to see what my machine can do,I have styli and disc's polycarbonate and acetate

[Stevie342000]

Hello Stevie 342000,I'm really grateful for all your information and help,I'm going to do what you suggested, its going to take a bit of time ,what with work,etc(not to mention nerves)I also contacted my friend Norman who cuts the 78's,he's thinking there's something wrong with cutterhead, I've posted cutterhead of to him today,he's going to give it the once over,and check my cutterhead on his Mss,finger's crossed, my friend in lancing Sussex has his own electrical repair shop ,he's going to fit something so I can change frequency between 45 & 33,I can't wait to see what my machine can do,I have styli and disc's polycarbonate and acetate

It will be worth it in the end, especially if you can get it to run at other speeds, you will still have fixed groove pitch thought which may not be fine enough to get a full length long playing disc out of it.

Keep us posted, any help I can give just ask. The head may need a rewire, speak to Norman about his variable groove system which should resolve issue on the fixed pitch you got now.