I want to cut the best one off vinyl records in the world

[Reuben123]

How do I achieve this?
I have a music studio with digital and analogue tape recording. I have analogue mix down gear. I have knowledge of mixing and mastering audio.
I have read threads on this forum and around the internet.

Here are my current understandings:
If I am to keep within my budget of around 10,000USD my options are:
1. Souri's Vinyl Recorder in Germany.
2. Low cost version of Flokason's AM44 from Switzerland.
3. Yet to be released Sillitoe Lathe in Australia. Although I read him mention 15,000USD.
4. Zez cutter from France or Brazil or something.

My assumptions from tidbits of conversations on net forums lead me to believe:
Flokason is an experienced man in the field of vinyl cutting lathes. He makes diamond cutting heads called Caruso and are possibly the best quality cutting heads available. He was part of the Vinylium team and their Kingston Dubplate Cutter.

If I am going to buy a turn key system from one of these lathe experts I should compare the quality of cuts achieved and the technology of each one.

The Wiki on this forum lists the VR and the Vinylium as currently available. I read threads that confirmed the Vinylium ceased being made in 2014. The misleading Wiki needs updating.
I am not too enthusiastic about trying to understand lathe cutting and what systems are possibly purchasable by searching and reading scattered posts on this forum.
I wish there was an up to date central information 'wiki' to read.

I suppose I am seeking opinions from experienced one off record cutters on what are the best technologies available. I am assuming Flokasons gear is the best currently produced.
It is discouraging to read that people trying to get into vinyl cutting are unable to communicate with the guys making these machines effectively. I am trying to think realistically about how difficult it could be to build these things and the guys offering lathes are trying to bring systems to the market.

It is encouraging that there is a market for vinyl lathes. If these lathe builders can be rewarded financially then there is hope that the technology will survive and continue to evolve and maybe get cheaper, be supported etc. This definitely isn't a click and order amazon.com proposition.

I assume I should get some experienced cutters to cut me a one off record of some high quality broad frequency spectrum audio from each machine and compare them at home on a turntable. But there is still the variable of each cutters skill, perhaps.

So to all the experienced cutters out there, what would you do to try to cut the best one off records in the world for around 10,000USD?
PS, I really know very little about all this except what I've read on here. Some off these lathe builders seem aloof and mysterious.

[Reuben123]

Are there any audio examples online of these different vinyl cutters?
Vinyl Recorder
Flokason AM44
Zen Cutter One
Sillitoe Lathe

[Sillitoe]

Hi Reuben123,

Thanks for your interest.
We are still in the late stages of R&D before product release.
I can add you to our mailing list if you like.
PM or contact me via-
info (at) sillitoeaudiotechnology (dot) com

Cheers
James

[ilium]

So to all the experienced cutters out there, what would you do to try to cut the best one off records in the world for around 10,000USD?
PS, I really know very little about all this except what I've read on here. Some off these lathe builders seem aloof and mysterious.

Just to save you some time read this thread..
https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=7648


Short version.. the premise of "best one off records in the world" sets an extremely high standard.. one with with no set price tag.. prepare to spend, spend and spend some more.

[Reuben123]

Hi Reuben123,

Thanks for your interest.
We are still in the late stages of R&D before product release.
I can add you to our mailing list if you like.
PM or contact me via-
info (at) sillitoeaudiotechnology (dot) com

Cheers
James

Hello Mr Sillitoe,
I am in New Zealand.
I listened on my Genelec 1031a's to your cut of Prince 'cream'. Sounded OK. I am not an expert on evaluating lathe cuts. I have only heard dub plates made by a VinylRecorder played in the dance on reggae sound system speakers. Sounded good to my ears. But the source audio was perhaps deliberately vintage sounding.
The cut of Prince definitely wasn't the original clarity. Maybe a little duller or less detailed. Hope I'm I'm not stepping on toes. I am inexperienced in evaluating lathe cuts. But pressed vinyl records can sound amazingly good.

I confess this forum frustrates me in many ways.

As mentioned, there should be a central up to date 'wiki' of common questions. FAQ.
There should also be audio examples from different lathe cutters labelling the lathe they used.
If I was really serious about this endeavour it may be wise to do a world tour of different lathe cutters and inspect, observe first hand.

How much is an AM44?
Sillitoe you mentioned 15,000-20,000 dollars of some currency. for the sillitoe lathe.

[Sillitoe]

Hi Reuben123,

Although the forum isn’t perfect it is probably your greatest resource.

The cut you refer to was an early testcut made using a Vinylike Caruso 133. (In my opinion these are great value for money).

I suggest that if you aren’t willing to educate yourself and have a budget of $10K then you won’t get “the best one off records in the world”.

I (and others) may come accross blunt here- please understand that I’m unable to spend the time going into details with everyone who shows interest in my yet to be released systems.

Let me know if you’d like to be one the mailing list.

Cheers
James

[ilium]

If I was really serious about this endeavour it may be wise to do a world tour of different lathe cutters and inspect, observe first hand.

Sure.. you could even fly to Germany and get training directly from Souri and maybe buy one of his lathes... but if you aren't serious then maybe you can understand why maybe the people who have invested huge amounts of time and money may not really have the time to answer basic questions.

As mentioned, there should be a central up to date 'wiki' of common questions. FAQ.
There should also be audio examples from different lathe cutters labelling the lathe they used.

These aren't bad ideas.. thought about trying to attack the wiki part of this myself.. it might stem the flow of repeat questions about how to get the best cut in the world on a budget.

How much is an AM44?

Probably more than your budget I'd guess. Have you tried contacting Flokason directly?

I am in New Zealand.

You should try to meet Peter King since you are in New Zealand http://peterkinglathecutrecords.co.nz/

[Reuben123]

Hi Reuben123,

Although the forum isn’t perfect it is probably your greatest resource.

Maybe for the more up to date developments. But for learning about the difference between a lacquer and a PVC record. Maybe not. Trawling through a disorganised forum to learn well established knowledge seems very inefficient.
I will be investing more time to research as I've always loved vinyl, own a music studio and other music activities.

The cut you refer to was an early testcut made using a Vinylike Caruso 133. (In my opinion these are great value for money).

I can't wait to hear other cutters real audio examples of lathe cuts on my studio monitors. Thanks for sharing.

I suggest that if you aren’t willing to educate yourself and have a budget of $10K then you won’t get “the best one off records in the world”.

I thought organising the sites 'wiki' to contain established facts instead of having information scattered through posts. Many which go off on tangents from the title, would be better than the knowledgable folks having to answer the same fundamental questions repeatedly.
But yes, 10,000USD may not be enough to have the BEST one off lathe cut records in the world.
But it was a start to ask. Maybe there is only so much that can be learned via the net and I really should visit some cutters.

I (and others) may come accross blunt here- please understand that I’m unable to spend the time going into details with everyone who shows interest in my yet to be released systems.

I was reading your 14 page thread 'Sillitoe Lathes' last night. Two or more years detailed progress of your learning and evolving hardware and software for cutting quality sound into plastic. Wouldn't that be a wise reference for people who show interest? Instead of personalised replies.

[Kris D]

Hi, buy Larry Bodens book Basic Disc Mastering. Read it. Then do some more research, and then ask your questions. You seem to presume this forum should spoon feed information to the user. On other platforms that may be desirable. In the world of record cutting there is a fair amount of secrecy, it’s one of the Black Arts. If you are passionate about this go see Peter In Ashburton.

PM me I can get you contact info for Peter

Best, Kris

[Reuben123]

Hi, buy Larry Bodens book Basic Disc Mastering. Read it. Then do some more research, and then ask your questions.

That sounds like a better strategy than reading forum posts.

You seem to presume this forum should spoon feed information to the user.

I sincerely believe that for a topic such as lathe cutting records there must be a better way to organise information than telling people to read through, I don't know how many, forum posts for info that could be wiki stick'ied.

On other platforms that may be desirable. In the world of record cutting there is a fair amount of secrecy, it’s one of the Black Arts.

I'm not interested in engaging with arrogant attitudes and trying to deserve secrets. Just healthy constructive learning and living.

If you are passionate about this go see Peter In Ashburton.
PM me I can get you contact info for Peter
Best, Kris

I have heard criticisms of Peter Kings quality. I have not personally heard his cuts though. He has a website with contact info.

[Reuben123]

In hindsight, I think I should have titled this thread 'How would you (experienced 'one off' record cutters) choose to get the best quality lathe cut records for 10-15K USD?

Then people who are up to date on developments and have knowledge on equipment could comment on what they think the options are.
The options are quite limited. VinylRecorder, AM44 and yet to be released Zez Cutter One and Sillitoe Lathe.

From the little bit of reading I have done it seems the best option within this budget would be a VinylRecorder with Caruso head and a high torque technics turntable.
Am I getting close?
Flo's AM44 is mentioned as ballpark 15,000 Swiss Francs on his site. So technically that is over budget. Is it true that the Caruso head can be put on a VR?
Would a heavy high torque turntable improve the VR?
What are the specific advantages of Flo's Caruso cutting head and his AM44 that make it able to produce higher quality cuts?
It's Friday so I will have some free time in the weekend to wear my eyes out reading this forum.

[ilium]

Hi, buy Larry Bodens book Basic Disc Mastering. Read it. Then do some more research, and then ask your questions.

That sounds like a better strategy than reading forum posts.

There's an updated second edition on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASIC-DISC-MASTERING-2nd-Ed-Boden-for-record-lathe-Neumann-Westrex-Scully-/272083882355?hash=item3f59769173

But also a free archive of the original here.
https://archive.org/details/BasicDiscMasteringLarryBoden600dpi

I suppose the downside though is the book does not cover any of the systems that are what one might call readily available.

You seem to presume this forum should spoon feed information to the user.

I sincerely believe that for a topic such as lathe cutting records there must be a better way to organise information than telling people to read through, I don't know how many, forum posts for info that could be wiki stick'ied.

Sure.. but at this point it's way easier to say that than to take on the herculean task of making the contents of this forum easily digestible for casual interest.

[ilium]

From the little bit of reading I have done it seems the best option within this budget would be a VinylRecorder with Caruso head and a high torque technics turntable.
Am I getting close?

I'll just quote something from the thread I linked earlier about the VinylRecorder..

"Unless you can actually buy a lathe from Souri, remove him from your thought process, because he has no bearing on reality. He's like this mythical creature that doesn't actually exist in terms of a readily available lathe that anybody can buy. "

My point being that you are getting ahead of yourself.. if you approach Souri with this idea of replacing the head he will probably not sell his system to you.. etc

[ilium]

In regards to the information available and the cost vinyl cutting I'd like to compare it another technology which is 3d printing.

It used to be that 3d printing was incredibly expensive.. but as the patents ran out and many different competitors started making systems the cost came way down and lots of people started putting info online about it.. even wiki's.

But even with the resurgence of interest in vinyl the number of people interested in cutting one's own vinyl pales in comparison to the number of people wanting to get into 3d printing. Also the precision involved with the typical 3d printer is much lower than what is required to cut a decent record.

Although the availability of rapid prototyping has helped with the development of new cutting systems.

[Reuben123]

I know someone locally who owns a VinylRecorder. Somehow he managed to obtain one from the mythical creature and produce good sounding dub plates that get played in the dance on a beautiful sound system. Not a critical listening environment perhaps. But very encouraging.

I do wonder if people sometimes exaggerate certain challenges with lathe cutting. I've read posts where people are listing all the expensive items needed for cutting. Some one mentioned Audio converters.
You can get an Apogee Duet second hand for peanuts these days.

Here I go asking a question that should probably be it's own thread:
Why do people say that buying the lathe is the cheap part? What other expenses come along? If I already have a music studio and can master in digital land. What are the most likely expenses people are referring to?
I am guessing replacement cutter heads and blanks.

[ilium]

I know someone locally who owns a VinylRecorder. Somehow he managed to obtain one from the mythical creature and produce good sounding dub plates that get played in the dance on a beautiful sound system. Not a critical listening environment perhaps. But very encouraging.

Cool, then maybe fly to Germany get the training and buy one. If you decide you want something different you'll have no problem reselling it.

I do wonder if people sometimes exaggerate certain challenges with lathe cutting. I've read posts where people are listing all the expensive items needed for cutting. Some one mentioned Audio converters. You can get an Apogee Duet second hand for peanuts these days.

I dunno it's inverse of those who think it should be very cheap .. again keep in mind you did throw out the phrase "best one off vinyl records in the world" and there's IMO a lot of subjectively as well as science and wizardry with cutting.

Here I go asking a question that should probably be it's own thread:
Why do people say that buying the lathe is the cheap part? What other expenses come along? If I already have a music studio and can master in digital land. What are the most likely expenses people are referring to?
I am guessing replacement cutter heads and blanks.

I don't think anybody was saying the lathe was the cheap part but in regards to the thread I linked the OP was seemingly shocked that a system might cost as much as a house where they live. Considering the supplies such as lacquer blanks and diamond styluses aren't exactly cheap and both are easy to ruin it was suggested that if obtaining the system would be a financial stretch for them that maybe they take a different hobby cause the running cost of supplies and other equipment might shock them as well since they did not already own a professional audio studio?

But you are looking into this as a business venture right?

[Reuben123]

I do wonder if people sometimes exaggerate certain challenges with lathe cutting. I've read posts where people are listing all the expensive items needed for cutting. Some one mentioned Audio converters. You can get an Apogee Duet second hand for peanuts these days.

I dunno it's inverse of those who think it should be very cheap .. again keep in mind you did throw out the phrase "best one off vinyl records in the world" and there's IMO a lot of subjectively as well as science and wizardry with cutting.

Yes many speak of it as a black art. Some have said it is part knowledge of the cutting process but more knowledge of audio. That was a very encouraging assertion. I always think of frequencies and dynamics etc with music production.

Here I go asking a question that should probably be it's own thread:
Why do people say that buying the lathe is the cheap part? What other expenses come along? If I already have a music studio and can master in digital land. What are the most likely expenses people are referring to?
I am guessing replacement cutter heads and blanks.

I don't think anybody was saying the lathe was the cheap part

I had an email from a lathe owner claiming the lathe was the cheap part.

but in regards to the thread I posted the OP was seemingly shocked that a system might cost as much as a house where they live.

I read that thread. The poster claimed houses can cost 15,000 dollars where he lives. I don't feel that comparison is realistic or worth quoting as any kind of useful reference. The information can get vague. Let's keep things specific.

Considering the supplies such as lacquer blanks and diamond styluses aren't exactly cheap and both are easy to ruin it was suggested that if obtaining the system would be a financial stretch for them that maybe they take a different hobby?
But you are looking into as a business venture right?

I don't think cutting one off records is a smart investment in comparison to other options. But it would be an amazing addition to owning a music studio and releasing music. And sound system dances playing tunes. I would consider it an alternative to owning a hot rod. But I wouldn't say no to cutting tunes for profit once my skills were up to par.
I own a 1 inch 8 track and digital recording. I want to keep this alive. I want to invest 10K USD or a bit more into cutting the BEST records I can manage.

[ilium]

I had an email from a lathe owner claiming the lathe was the cheap part.

Huh.. yeah I dunno about that.. unless they got lucky and picked up a vintage lathe for cheap which does happen.

I want to invest 10K USD or a bit more into cutting the BEST records I can manage.

Right.. well I still think realistically your best bet would be to try to buy a VinylRecorder and like I said if you decide it's not for you then you won't have any problem reselling it... either that or wait for the Sillitoe.

[Reuben123]

I had an email from a lathe owner claiming the lathe was the cheap part.

Huh.. yeah I dunno about that.. unless they got lucky and picked up a vintage lathe for cheap which does happen.

He was referring to an AM44.

[Gridlock]

Just go visit Peter. If I lived on the same damn island as that guy I'd be doing his laundry and running errands for him. Just do it man. I hear they even pick up hitchhikers there still.