I want to cut the best one off vinyl records in the world

[Reuben123]

Just go visit Peter. If I lived on the same damn island as that guy I'd be doing his laundry and running errands for him. Just do it man. I hear they even pick up hitchhikers there still.

I hear you. Plus my mate with the VR who is 20 minutes away. Peter is on another island though. The south one.

[Reuben123]

I really want to track down quality digitised examples of different lathe cuts. VinylRecorder, AM44 etc.
Roman.

[fredbissnette]

the best cuts ive heard were all done on a 74 or a scully with a 74 head or ortofon head into pvc

this is very expensive

[Reuben123]

Does that mean you have heard VinylRecorder cuts and AM44 cuts or VR with Caruso head?
Need a little more specific replies to be useful.
Thanks.

[audiosteam]

Hi Reuben,
your question is difficult because there are many parameters to consider. Yes the equipment will make a difference but two persons with exactly the same setup will not cut the same record. You as an engineer are carrying years of experience, all you choices are following your knowledge, your feeling, your taste. It's not rare to find custom parts, the systems are modular, even when you theoretically can't do it ... we find workarounds to put parts together according our needs or wishes.
My quick answer on your list:
VR why not, it's probably the most affordable, user ready solution right now.. that is if you are Ulrich-compatible
ZEZ probably not a good idea right now.. unless you're planning some holidays in Brazil
AM44, not available yet, probably almost ready
Sillitoe, not ready yet


As a fellow Troll said, hey you're not far from Peter, this is a gift, meeting someone who shares your passion is the best

[dubcutter89]

The best one off records is impossible as there is no thing as "best" in artistic business like making records....hope you already got that!
If you search for quality setup then you should look at the regular tech specs considered quality related - but be aware that nobody really ever published trustworthy specs since the big manufactures stopped in the 80ies...and even then you have to maintain, align and keep those 40+ year old machines going!

I really want to track down quality digitised examples of different lathe cuts. VinylRecorder, AM44 etc.
Roman.

Hey, what about supporting the crowd here and get some records done? Then you can choose music (what you think is suitable for your personal quality control) and even use playback system(s) of your choice!
Let's say 5 different cuts of 5 different people on 5 different setups? That would make 125 dubs to listen and compare..haha

Cheers
Lukas

[fredbissnette]

ive heard vr cuts and they are really good
but cuts made on a mastering lathe with hi end outboards sound better

in any case the real answer is you need a shit hot source to cut , without a great band or song or really good mastering the result will not be a rolls royce, ive cut some material that just baffled me as to how good it was and most of that was the ear of the mastering engineer not the cutter.

[Reuben123]

Hi Reuben,
your question is difficult because there are many parameters to consider. Yes the equipment will make a difference but two persons with exactly the same setup will not cut the same record.

I have been made understood that the cutters experience and decisions will be a big variable in the end result. And the source audio. It's dynamics and frequency spectrum curve. High frequencies are said to require the most energy by the cutter head. And from playing pressed records, I can relate to the often talked of issues with sibilance in a cut. De-essers get recommended to compress these frequencies.

You as an engineer are carrying years of experience, all you choices are following your knowledge, your feeling, your taste.

I may have a head start as I obsess over music recordings and the way they sound. I have a music studio with 8 track one inch Otari tape recorder and all the digital stuff as well. I loathe modern maximum loudness heavily limited masters. I am at least a little bit involved in the balancing act of compressing, eq'ing etc.
Whatever parameters are involved in getting appropriate sounding cuts, I am sure I can keep working with them towards improvements in the grooved plastic result.
From reading this forum, it seems I would have more potential for pro sounding cuts with a Flokason AM44 vs a VinylRecorder. But I haven't heard examples yet. But peoples expressed opinions seem unanimous. A better lathe is capable with an experienced cutter of better sonic results. This must be why people spend more money on expensive equipment.
But if you guys are emphasising that the decisions and application of the equipment are a bigger variable. Then the question arises, how good can a VR cut get compared to more expensive options? Are there technical limitations that cannot be overcome with an expert hand and brilliantly mastered source audio?

It's not rare to find custom parts, the systems are modular, even when you theoretically can't do it ... we find workarounds to put parts together according our needs or wishes.

I haven't read the disc mastering books yet. Just dipping my toes on this forum. There are also a number of youtube videos with lathe cutters sharing knowledge. The lathes can seem fairly simple and understandable when watching these videos of cutters describing the system.
Apparently the caruso head on a VR is a big improvement.

My quick answer on your list:
VR why not, it's probably the most affordable, user ready solution right now.. that is if you are Ulrich-compatible

A local guy owns a VR. I can get some music cut by him. I could also get stuff cut by other VR users (ideally the best experienced) to get something to evaluate.

ZEZ probably not a good idea right now.. unless you're planning some holidays in Brazil

Don't know much about the ZEZ. I did read a thread on it. Wasn't there a disagreement between the two guys?

AM44, not available yet, probably almost ready

I got a reply from Flo. There are 3 in action and more coming. One man show limitations. Jesus from Greece who posts on here got the first AM44.
The rubber will hit the road when I get some cuts done on some AM44 systems.

Sillitoe, not ready yet

From my laymens point of view, I assume each system will have sonic limitations. Audio examples being the best tool to evaluate.

As a fellow Troll said, hey you're not far from Peter, this is a gift, meeting someone who shares your passion is the best

Yes you repeating that makes me wonder if I have underestimated how useful it could be to spend time with Peter learning. His methods are said to be basic and limited so the results perhaps won't compete with more evolved systems and methods. But it could be a very wise move to organise a stay with him if I could.
Anyone heard his results?

[Reuben123]

The best one off records is impossible as there is no thing as "best" in artistic business like making records....hope you already got that!

I think a more useful title may have been 'what would you experienced one off record cutters do with 10-15K USD to achieve the best quality possible? There are people with knowledge, experience and are up top date with current technical options and advances.
Would you rather have a Neumann or a VinylRecorder?
It seems to be accepted fact that different systems are more limited in what they can achieve in sonic quality than others. The AM44 is claimed to have a true feedback cutting head which could be a big step up from the VR. Amongst other things.
I am sure most of us would agree on the better result of two different cuts of the same song by two different people/systems. The clearer, more accurate version would sound more Hi Fi.
I appreciate the subjectivity in mixing and mastering choices. And perhaps this continues to the lathe cutting. Personal preferences may come into play.
But is one system capable of a wider, more accurate frequency range and detail?

If you search for quality setup then you should look at the regular tech specs considered quality related - but be aware that nobody really ever published trustworthy specs since the big manufactures stopped in the 80ies...and even then you have to maintain, align and keep those 40+ year old machines going!

A bit of a scary, potentially expensive prospect maintaining these obscure machines. Hopefully I could call on some clever talent in New Zealand.

I really want to track down quality digitised examples of different lathe cuts. VinylRecorder, AM44 etc.
Roman.

Hey, what about supporting the crowd here and get some records done? Then you can choose music (what you think is suitable for your personal quality control) and even use playback system(s) of your choice!
Let's say 5 different cuts of 5 different people on 5 different setups? That would make 125 dubs to listen and compare..haha

Yes, I won't be buying a lathe before getting some one off lathe cut records made. And yes I will be comparing different systems and I suppose cutters skills.
5 different people with a different set up each is still 5 different set ups. So 5 different 12 inch cuts on 5 different set ups is 25 dub plate. I could then digitise them and offer them to the forum for evaluation as well.
Thanks Lukas.

[Reuben123]

ive heard vr cuts and they are really good
but cuts made on a mastering lathe with hi end outboards sound better

Others on this forum have said the Kingston Dubplate cutter is easily better in result. But getting some cuts made will be the true test.

in any case the real answer is you need a shit hot source to cut , without a great band or song or really good mastering the result will not be a rolls royce, ive cut some material that just baffled me as to how good it was and most of that was the ear of the mastering engineer not the cutter.

What system do you use?
Can a lathe cut sound as good as a pressed record? I am sure I am not the firs to ask this. It would be a dream come true to have clear detailed highs and solid bass etc like a good quality pressed record.
What are the usual deficiencies of lathe cuts?
I am have read many times that mastering needs to be appropriate for vinyl. Mastering for vinyl.
So with good mastered music, that I am guessing wasn't too loud and heavily limited like radio audio, you were able to get clear sounding grooves from your setup?

[Reuben123]

This brings up the question 'what audio characteristics make cutting good lathe cuts harder to achieve?
I am guessing from my little bit of reading/research that too much high frequencies is challenging to cut. Waves L2 ultra maximised masters don't work on vinyl. Is severely squashed dynamic range hard to cut? Why is that? Less movement for the cutting needle?
I like some music genres that have bright eq'ed drum machines hi hats. But I have heard them reproduced reasonably well on pressed records. Although in hindsight, perhaps there is some sibilance style distortion with drum machine bright hi hats on records. Perhaps I will be listening to records more critically after researching and discussing lathe cut quality.

[ilium]

Can a lathe cut sound as good as a pressed record?

Well to be technical all pressed records start as a lathe cut so...

[fredbissnette]

i do not have a hi fi setup but i am very happy with what i have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtXc8Bm3Sts&t=2s

[Reuben123]

Can a lathe cut sound as good as a pressed record?

Well to be technical all pressed records start as a lathe cut so...

But the distinction here being that pressed records have a lacquer/acetate master which is very soft compared to one off records which use hard plastic, polycarbonate.
Are you comparing apples to apples?
Can a durable PVC one off record sound as good as a pressed record?

[Reuben123]

i do not have a hi fi setup but i am very happy with what i have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtXc8Bm3Sts&t=2s

Super dope funky fresh. Sounds like Average White Band.
You seem to have built your own lathe from bits and pieces. Do you have any digitised audio examples on the web. Bypassing the iPhone mic that is.
Well done!
Your website doesn't work for me?

[fredbissnette]

website is down i do biz thru instagram @madstyluspressure

here is the same track in the vid
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdkjla9f193vqwf/no%20title%20test%20cut.wav?dl=0

[ilium]

website is down i do biz thru instagram @madstyluspressure

here is the same track in the vid
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdkjla9f193vqwf/no%20title%20test%20cut.wav?dl=0

Sounds pretty tight although a bit too mid range to my ear.. are cutting with a diamond or embossing?

[Reuben123]

website is down i do biz thru instagram @madstyluspressure

here is the same track in the vid
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdkjla9f193vqwf/no%20title%20test%20cut.wav?dl=0

Bless you mate. It is impossible to evaluate audio on iPhone youtube videos.
Your sound isn't Hi Fi. The music is right up my alley.
It seems to lack lows and highs. Maybe detail?
Is the quality usually a frequency reproduction variable.
Maybe the recording didn't contain high frequencies.
Amazing that you can accomplish that to me.
Maybe recut with less mid range?

[fredbissnette]

embossing with metal needles is not hifi

but i make playable permanent records and im good with this

[Reuben123]

embossing with metal needles is not hifi

but i make playable permanent records and im good with this

I watched a youtube video where the cutter at Little Elephant lathe cuts explained that embossing is pressing the grooves into the plastic. Versus cutting which cuts out plastic creating shavings, which has a better sound. Less noise, louder etc.

So your needle isn't cutting plastic out but pressing into the disc?