1956 A-R-Sugden Connoisseur RecordLathe *drool*

[recordboy]

"Dreaming is free."

http://m.ebay.com/itm/A-R-Sugden-Connoisseur-Record-Cutting-Lathe-1956-Neumann-EMT-Westrex-SME-BBC-/182002680754?nav=SEARCH

All gothed out in black...


P.s. that cutter head is very interesting.
*the patent search begins*

[Stevie342000]

"Dreaming is free."

http://m.ebay.com/itm/A-R-Sugden-Connoisseur-Record-Cutting-Lathe-1956-Neumann-EMT-Westrex-SME-BBC-/182002680754?nav=SEARCH

All gothed out in black...


P.s. that cutter head is very interesting.
*the patent search begins*

It was up for auction a couple of weeks back, I asked him for copies of the paperwork he was not willing to do it despite off a payment for his trouble. Not even photos. It had 80 watchers and he kept upping and downing the price, just as he has done this time.

Additionally it was up for auction months back and did not sell at the price of £1995, I think he is a lurker here but then it is only an opinion.

Or he has heard about the resurgence of cutting records and now think it must be worth oh so much more.

Interestingly the letters are from my home city of Manchester, England.

I have two of these lathes and no they are currently not up for sale. I had asked him for copies of the paper work when he first listed the item, he pretended he did not know what I was after and then proceeded to ignore me. However it could be a different lathe but the chances of Two Sugden lathes coming up from the BBC with the same paper work address is highly unlikely.

He has two sets of typed instructions on how to use the lathe, these will be rarer than hens teeth again only an opinion. I can tell you one of my lathes is number 50 something, the other has a number but can not find it right now.

If you find the patent for the lathe you need to be looking about 1949 for when it was filed, the patent for the cutter head in this very section, just look for Sugden. The cutting lathe was demonstrated at the British Sound Recording Association about that time, I know I have the BSRA journals from 1946 (when it restarted after WW2) until about 1955 (I have British Standards for recorcding both pre and post-RIAA). The US patent for the head was filed in 1949 and granted in 1951.

His first lathe was 78 RPM only if I remember then 33/78 RPM in 1950 and 33/45/78 RPM in 1952, 45 RPM discs were introduced in the UK in that year.

Steve (in the UK)

[recordboy]

Thnx for that info Stevie

Probably his price is due to him owning that paperwork & it being included?

You own two?
YOU LUCKY DOG!!!
sexy machine indeed.

Maybe he doesn't even really want to sell it or part with it yet would if someone came along &gave him the amout listed?

Maybe he over payed & can't see loosing money.

no matter, still a sexy machine.

do you have posts showing off yours or discussing them etc.?

Thanx again for the patn tip.

cheers

[Stevie342000]

Thnx for that info Stevie

Probably his price is due to him owning that paperwork & it being included?

You own two?
YOU LUCKY DOG!!!
sexy machine indeed.

Maybe he doesn't even really want to sell it or part with it yet would if someone came along &gave him the amout listed?

Maybe he over payed & can't see loosing money.

no matter, still a sexy machine.

do you have posts showing off yours or discussing them etc.?

Thanx again for the patn tip.

cheers

The letters add nothing to it's real value, you can read parts of them the sender is asking questions about equalisation settings and using the cutting lathe with a Quad II power and mono pre-amplifier. Nothing odd or special about that.

Neither do the instructions warrant the asking price, personally I just think they are aware of the resurgence in vinyl and are asking for what they think is a far price. The price is not realistic, as I told him in message on eBay the lathe might be good and a cut above the norm it is not a Neumann.

Common sense should tell you if it did not sell at £2K then what chance does it stand to sell at £5K?

There may be mention of the lathe patent in the cutter head patent. There are pictures of my lathe on here in this section. I had to travel about 100 miles to go and pick it up.

OK if his price is realistic I paid 100th of what he is asking for that one and 1/5th of what he is asking for the second one but that included the HQ20 power amplifier (mentioned in those letters in the auction).

In the last few months there have been at least 3 - 5 of the HQ20 pre-amps come up with the cutter equalisation switch. One of them is in my home town he has it on hold for me.

Now the instructions I would like merely for having a complete Connoisseur set up - made up of the cutting lathe, cutting head, HQ20 pre-amplifier and power amplifier.

Now back to his price I would say it would be justified if he had a complete set of instructions for the lathe, letters to the BBC in Manchester, stereo cutting head and some stereo discs which were due to be released (I've seen the pressings of the stereo discs come up on eBay). Under those circumstances I would be happy to pay the price but for a bog standard lathe with a set of letters. Seriously!!! You got to be kidding me!!!!

As a lathe with the stereo cutter head would be rare, as far as I know a few were made for EMI, Decca(UK), I think Pye had one which is why they were first to release stereo discs in the UK. The Pye cutter head I think made it's way to America and was used on the Westminster recordings.

There stereo cutter head is vertical/lateral (90/0) you would need to shift the phase to cut 45/45 that is simple enough to do they did it back in the day anyhow, Columbia and others used that. At the outset there was more than one method and for some time to cut a stereo disc. It's all in the magazines you just go to know where to look.

[recordboy]

Maybe steve you are thriftier than you give yourself credit? I have MANY MANY things I scored for 100th to 500th the going prices. luck ov the draw still takes skill. I saw what you paid & that entire thread ov it before it became yours. I think you got a STEAL!!!! not EVERY transaction can b a steal though. & on any given day some green or filthy rich bum might just say ok, i will pay that. goes on global tis why the earth is drowning in garbage. Barnum said a sucker was born every min. & that was 100+ yrs ago. they are MUCH more prevalent these days. Goes both ways too. Some discard REALLY wonderful things worth big $ and are pure clueless.

Ur correct & he's just fishing indeed.

Would i pay that amount if i had just won 16,000,000,000.00 recently?

Damn straight.
would it b worth it to me? Yup. would it thus be worth that much? At that price for what it does compated to other machines that do the job in its range etc. is other story completely yet i think maybe that is yr point? And i would agree... i had never seen one & just thought it was so pretty. I'm glad i did, i learned some stuff

Cheers

[Stevie342000]

Maybe steve you are thriftier than you give yourself credit? I have MANY MANY things I scored for 100th to 500th the going prices. luck ov the draw still takes skill. I saw what you paid & that entire thread ov it before it became yours. I think you got a STEAL!!!! not EVERY transaction can b a steal though. & on any given day some green or filthy rich bum might just say ok, i will pay that. goes on global tis why the earth is drowning in garbage. Barnum said a sucker was born every min. & that was 100+ yrs ago. they are MUCH more prevalent these days. Goes both ways too. Some discard REALLY wonderful things worth big $ and are pure clueless.

Ur correct & he's just fishing indeed.

Would i pay that amount if i had just won 16,000,000,000.00 recently?

Damn straight.
would it b worth it to me? Yup. would it thus be worth that much? At that price for what it does compated to other machines that do the job in its range etc. is other story completely yet i think maybe that is yr point? And i would agree... i had never seen one & just thought it was so pretty. I'm glad i did, i learned some stuff

Cheers

I would not level thrifty in my direction but I do not go splashing money around paying more than I need for something.

Don't get me wrong the Sugden lathe is good, there is no other competent design of its type in the UK from that era. Yes possibly MSS but that does not have variable groove pitch or it might have only one or two speeds not 3 speeds.

The downside if you want my opinion on the Sugden its the way the platter is drive, cause for a lot of rumble if that rubber idler is hard. A better option would have been belt drive or the same type of drive as a Fairchild 539 through a gearbox.

Now not that I am suggesting we go about cutting up lathes but a system that is cross between a Fairchild 539 and the Sugden would be good but then if I remember the Fairchild had a variable pitch but not on the fly.

You can vary the pitch on the Sudgen whilst you are cutting and it would not be that difficult to modify it so it was driven by a DC servo motor system with a suitable preview signal to get proper variable pitch according to the dynamic range of the music.

Now that would have been a neat design.

The price you pay and what you think anything is worth is the price you are willing to pay, this guy is not being realistic on his pricing. The Sudgen lathe came up on this forum in the Classifieds section you just go to go look. The patent is there, the article on the stereo cutter head is there and the lathe that I bought is there.

Yes just checking my maths, I did pay 1/10th for that lathe and 1/5th of what he is asking for the other lathe which came with an adaptor and a Presto 1D which had been serviced by Len Horowitz. so if you think about which item did I get free on that deal the lathe or the amplifier (which had been serviced as well).

[recordboy]

Indeed Sir

Funny you mentioning the drive system as I was just admiring it "look" /design & thinking about adopting it into a diy project I'm toying ideas with. I am debating which system to drive a platter is best? Direct, idler wheel, or belt etc.

http://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6303

P.s.
Just to clear something up, when I say or use "thrifty" I don't mean cheap. Rather someone clever, who can make things happen with limited resources. Resourceful...

As one ov my FAVORITE Artist once sung:
"words have different meanings"

I myself am damn thrifty x)

Cheers

[Stevie342000]

Indeed Sir

Funny you mentioning the drive system as I was just admiring it "look" /design & thinking about adopting it into a diy project I'm toying ideas with. I am debating which system to drive a platter is best? Direct, idler wheel, or belt etc.

http://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6303

P.s.
Just to clear something up, when I say or use "thrifty" I don't mean cheap. Rather someone clever, who can make things happen with limited resources. Resourceful...

As one ov my FAVORITE Artist once sung:
"words have different meanings"

I myself am damn thrifty x)

Cheers

I would say belt drive is best you might get a bit of slip but no rumble.

[recordboy]

Cheers

[Stevie342000]

Cheers

If you are not familiar with it go take a look at a Universal cutting lathe, check my threads I have spoken about it in the last few days.

Do a search on here too there may be more than mention of the Universal lathe.

It is the principle you are looking at not an exact replica of the Universal lathe.

Direct drive is probably the best think Fairchild 539 or Neumann but it would not be easy to fabricate hence why I said belt drive.

You will still need torque and a platter with a lot of mass, as long as your motor is powerful enough should be no problem.

You will need to look at pulleys (see thread on Presto 8DG - for ideas on that) to get down from 1500 or more rpm to 33, 45 or 78 rpm.

[recordboy]

Thnx Steve

Great tips!!

will do

& Yes I have administration for the universal lathe for some time. I am looking at all options for my project. want to keep it compact as possible.

[Stevie342000]

Thnx Steve

Great tips!!

will do

& Yes I have administration for the universal lathe for some time. I am looking at all options for my project. want to keep it compact as possible.

jamesfabel a list member message me recently about Information on the Universal cutting lathe if you or anyhow has any information and I think more specifically a user manual get in touch with him.

The drive system on the Sugden Vari-groove is nothing unique one of the bigger Fairchild lathes use the same thing. OK I will take it one step at a time so you can figure out how it works.

The system is drive by a drive belt I have one with a rubber drive belt and the other has a sort of metal spring type drive belt. The first small pulley is on the base of the turntable platter spindle, this in turn drives the belt which in turn drives the larger pulley.

Now the drive system itself the drive larger pulley obscures the actual drive pulley, sandwich between the two same size pulleys is a rubber idler which is on a cam shaft, this in turn is connected to the vari-groove knob on the base plate. As you turn the knob on the base plate it moves the idler across the surfaces of those two larger pulleys and thus changes the speed at which the lead-screw turns.

At the lead screw end you have a gear which is driven by a cone type gear which is attached to the middle of the slightly obscured drive pulley. On the end of the lead-screw the crank handle is attached so that you can do groove spacing either lead-in, lead-out or separation between tracks.

The system itself and the whole of the lathe is well thought out and there is very little to go wrong as it is mechanical the only electrical part of course is the motor.

[Stevie342000]

Time to drool some more it is up again listed on eBay at a lower price but honestly still not realistic.

182034310121

Having looked at his other auction he may be more than just a clueless chancer as he states the item was made in 1931. Well a quick check of when the PX25 was introduced should answer your question on that one see: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaj0004.htm and eBay item number: 182028036953

I have not checked on when Simon Sales was formed as a company but 1931 sounds like a plausible date.

[recordboy]

Hi Steve

thmx for the info.

I agree its way rich that price.
Maybe restored could command a price like that.

[Skint]

This went for a cool £1380 in the end: http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/182041710513?_mwBanner=1

It is lovely...

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

[Stevie342000]

This went for a cool £1380 in the end: http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/182041710513?_mwBanner=1

It is lovely...

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

Yes an absolute steal I got almost two Sugden lathes for that much, yes I was lucky by the looks of it or not depending on how you want to look at it. Prices on auctions sites are often over inflated, case in point in he tried to sell the machine about 12 months ago at £1999 and it did not sell then he tried to sell it at £5000 it several times and still did not sell.

Had the person not had some over inflated idea of its worth he should have let the auction run he did in the past before he cancelled it because he did not like the look of the price he was going to get.

I wonder if the person who bought it was on this list? I asked the guy for a copy of the paper work a few times...too much trouble to reply when he listed it originally and too much trouble when he recently started to re-list the item again and again.

Nothing to say this item will not be back again, would not surprise me if he tried to weasel out of the deal and re-list it again. Time will tell but nothing surprises me, yes call me bitter but I only asked for copies of the letters and the operating instructions a simple request which fell on deaf ears. How much trouble could that be to make some extra money?

[Skint]

Yes, I read just about all your posts on the subject because I was interested. I did bid, but a fair bit less, partly because of the absence of the amp, and partly because it seemed a bit of a gamble what with me being new to this game... Someone will be very happy. I'd like to think they may turn up on here and contribute those scans - let's see!

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

[Stevie342000]

Yes, I read just about all your posts on the subject because I was interested. I did bid, but a fair bit less, partly because of the absence of the amp, and partly because it seemed a bit of a gamble what with me being new to this game... Someone will be very happy. I'd like to think they may turn up on here and contribute those scans - let's see!

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

It is more than likely that it is someone on this forum or who as accessed it as a member or not, let us all hope that those papers turn up. No point in looking to see who the winning bidder was to contact them, as it was listed as a Private members bid or listing. Plus given the performance of the seller in the past he is not likely to pass on requests or any details of or to the winning bidder.

I got my second lathe thrown in with the Connoisseur HQ 20 power amplifier for a bit less than what this one went for, if you want to do the maths, I then purchased the Presto 1-D later for what they paid for one lathe. Mind you it is almost 24 months on since I got my second Connoisseur (Sugden) lathe and prices are going only way.

Both the amp and the Presto head had been serviced, not forgetting to add that I got an adaptor for the Presto head to the Sugden lathe, plus a Neumann stylus adapter and a Capps SX68/74 cutting stylus brand new as well.

So I got a good deal and I paid what I thought it was worth but to be truthful it was at the top end or what I would pay then and now. Given that I paid less than £500 and more than £400 for the first lathe. That price in my opinion is more realistic or perhaps a little higher but no more than £750 would I pay for one of these, yes they are good, yes they are well designed but they have not been manufactured for more than 50 - 55 years. They were available up to 1961 and that is the last mention I have found of them.

I can not remember if the Mark 1 version was single speed but the Mark 2 came out in or around 1950 and Mark 3 about 1952 when 45 rpm was brought into play in the UK. Arnold was at the cutting edge when he brought these out he was ahead of trend, on speeds along, not forgetting heated stylus, vacuum tube swarf pick up just to name a few plus of course Variable Groove Pitch. None of those were the norm this side of the pond at least and not as standard here in the UK or in USA professional lathes aside. This is a semi professional machine that the top end in the UK and equivalent to Fairchild in the USA.

Only downside is he stuck to a 12" platter not 16" plus it is idler drive (a source of rumble) not gear driven or belt driven as in Fairchild or Universal. As for its price it went up by £50 in 10 years to £200, he was always at the cheaper end, an MSS would have cost anything up to £400.

I doubt any manufacturer in the UK was making cutting lathes much later than the early 1960s period, at or around this time MSS sold their lathe cutting arm to EMI, who probably shut it down at that point. By the time you get to the early 1960s cutting lathes were old hat reel to reel tape machines had taken over and by the late 1960 that was doomed as well as cassette tape was coming to the fore. Most of the tape machine or tape manufacturers were gone by the mid-1970s or early 1980s, as were all of the audio manufacturers who had set up post WW2 or pre war.

The only survivors from that period are Quad or Tannoy but they were never low end to start with, Wharfedale and Celestion survive as well, Goodmans well nothing of any merit in their ranges in recent years. Many survive as part of huge conglomerates, EMI bought a host of the companies from that era, they bought them up and shut them down.

[Skint]

I run a Garrard 301 and Leak Stereo 20 for playback and this would've been a nice fit from that point of view. I never notice rumble from my 301 but perhaps it's more noticeable in cutting... You know, it had never occurred to me that the humble reel to reel would've been the nail in the lathe's coffin but it makes perfect sense now you mention it. I had assumed lathes to be almost exclusively for studios, or a luxury toy, rather than the only medium for recording at the time.

[misjah]

aaaaaand its back: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/272182015774?clk_rvr_id=1001897091184