Getting started / Buying the right thing

[mosfet]

First of all: Hello everybody and thanks for this great forum and sharing your knowledge here.

My name is Tobi and i will be graduating as an B.eng in Electrical Engineering soon. I have a handcrafting master degree as an electrician (some german thang ). I am interested in electronics and recording ever since and now i stumbled upon the well known "vinyl-recorder" which brought up my interest in reproducing. Digging deeper i discovered the vinylium gear and now the caruso project. So now i want to get started in cutting records with the attempt of selling some dubplates here in the area of frankfurt, but having the option of cutting lacquers to do mastering as well (this is obviously the point where VR is obsolete).

Why i post this in tip offs is that i would like to have some ideas of what a system with a caruso head (which i am tending to the most right now cause i like the enthusiasm and the idea of making a cutting head affordable) could look like, for someone getting started with the intention of learning about mastering. Which lathes and amps can be used with the caruso? Where do i get them? Should one straight get a neumann lathe (if one could affort ) and will it pay off?

It's tough gathering information thats why i ask straight up the newbie way.

Regards,


Tobi

[dubcutter89]

welcome to the universe of record cutting!

before getting started it may be a good idea to have a look at a mastering
facility near you to see what's it all about. i guess schnittstelle is the nearest
to you...

having some knowledge on electrical engineering is very helpful since most
systems will need overhauling on the electrical side.
if you go for the caruso head you should also get the preamp provided by
flotzki - it will fit the head and is the cheapest solution (you will need a lot of
$$$$$ anyway)

for a lathe basically anything that spins a record, has enough torque and a
moving system for the head will do. maybe you can find some vintage
consumer lathe (ie. presto , rek o kut etc.) and modify it or make
something yourself.

so good luck, and start saving some money in your piggy bank

regards

Lukas

[concretecowboy71]

You can't master with a Caruso. He even tells you that it does not have the specs to match an SX series Neumann head.

[flozki]

of course you can master with a caruso cutterhead !
that was the whole idea behind...
i was just very carefully with talking about performance without testing..

i still can say its not an sx74 head. its something different.

from the few cuts i have done yet i can tell you that the caruso is already better than a westrex head. and i think thats more than enough for 1500.-

and the pro-version will beat a 40 year old sx74. no question.

tomorrow i will put together the preamp v1.1 and hopefully i can provide more sound samples next week.

the official "semi-pro" setup for the cuts will be:

protools digi-002 directly feed to
carusopreamp boards
samson servo 300W amp. (a decent, definitely not the best but easy avilable and cheap amp)
and RC network (4.7ohm // 2.2 uf) with 0.63A slow blow fuse
caruso head

[mosfet]

Hey flozki,

Thanks for the response. Why do i need a digital console for the setup? If i would decide to get started with a caruso, could you provide me with a lathe as well?

I think the only way to get a clear picture of which head can match another one is the same way to compare a cheap soundblaster to a 5000.- audio interface. Do a blind test! Otherwise it just ends up in typical forum audio myth talk.

Greetings.

[flozki]

you dont need any digital console

i just try to describe what we define as "standard test setup"
and to give peole an idea how they can run it.
i also think there are better amps than the samson.
but this is just a basic and common "semi pro" setup that can work.
so if people will check the audio samples it will be clear that we didnt used
100000$ amps or fancy mastering outboard.
testcuts will be done in a very primitive and direct way.

you can feed whatever you like into the preamp.
1/4inch jacks so you can run it purely analog no problem...

i can provide lathes. but not cheapest. depends what your budget is and what you want.

[concretecowboy71]

I was not aware of a pro version of the head.

I apologize if I spoke out of context.

When you specify mastering, are you speaking of cutting lacquers for vinyl record production? From the discussions it did not seem it was, or else I would have signed up for one!

Can it be driven by the Neumann amp rack?

[mosfet]

So now i want to get started in cutting records with the attempt of selling some dubplates here in the area of frankfurt, but having the option of cutting lacquers to do mastering as well (this is obviously the point where VR is obsolete).

Isn't everybody here talking about cutting a lacquer when speaking of mastering? I'm just a newbie but what else mastering could be meant when speaking about mastering & cutting heads?

Flozki, i will pm you later on. The budget is what pays off in the long term, so i really think about getting THE standard lathe before mounting anything to a turntable.

[opcode66]

The budget is what pays off in the long term, so i really think about getting THE standard lathe before mounting anything to a turntable.

If you want THE standard lathe then you will want to find a Neumann VMS or a Sculy lathe. Likely, if you found one for sale, they would come with a head. Probably going to pay about $30K for it...

[concretecowboy71]

That is precisely what I am asking!

Nobody seems to answer some really basic questions about this product.

I have seen it asked numerous times if this can be run by Neumann amps and have never seen an answer.

I would say that if you intend to bolt this thing to a turntable and try to cut masters with it, then the real answer in NO, you cannot cut masters from it and expect the same results as a Scully or Neumann lathe.

The seller just seems to pick his words in a way that leaves it up to the buyer to determine what this really should be used for. If I am going to buy something and it is labeled "semi-pro" I want to know exactly what I am getting.

I don't want to give the impression that I am against this product. As a guy who currently owns a bunch of Neumann heads I of course am looking for a lower cost alternative in the future. I just think that the real application for this head is still a bit ambiguous. Is it meant to cut dubs, one-offs or masters? I have reread all the posts and cannot really find a real answer.

What concerns me the most is that a bunch of people will buy these, slap them on a Presto and say that they are cutting masters.

To me it is the same as people who use garage band for their Mac and say they are recording or mix engineers.

The people who cut on Scullys and Neumanns have invested a lot of time and money into their systems and I would certainly be one of the first to speak up if I thought my investment was jeopardized by a product that is so far unused in the market.

[opcode66]

I think that the semi-pro version (the ones currently being sold) are for cutting dubs (lacquer and plastic). I don't think they are for cutting masters. The Pro version that is yet to be produced will be for cutting masters.

No, you can't use the head with a SAL or VG amp rack. I believe that Flo is doing the feedback a bit differently and so you need to use his premp boards. So, source signal goes to preamp board that then goes to a standard power amplifier and then to a rc/fuse circuit and then to the caruso.

You could certainly mount this on a SA66 suspension box and run your own audio lines to it. So, yes, you can use the head on a neumann lathe, but not with the standard amp rack.

Finally, I have been working on trying to design a simple lathe from commonly available and currently produced parts. I'm trying to keep it as standard as possible and not put too much custom made pieces into it. I will post progress. This is what I'll be testing my new pitch computer on. Once I'm done I'll post plans (minus my p/d comp). It should be something anyone could order parts for and put together. Paired with a Caruso head, this would make a good semi-pro home brew cutting system.

[concretecowboy71]

Good info.

Thanks.

As a guy cutting seven days a week, this would not be a solution for me, as I would require a direct bolt on solution for a replacement/backup head.

With prices going the way they are for vintage gear, I understand the need and desire for low cost/modern alternatives and I am glad there are folks out there with the knowledge to do stuff like this.

I am sure it is only a short while before newer gear will edge out some of the classic stuff. but for some reason it just seemed like it was never clear exactly what this piece was intended to do and I think expectations are pretty high.

[mossboss]

Is it not that the answer is simple?
People are paying about 1.5-2 K for old heads whatever the brand is
There are people who cut dubs on simple machines with questionable results But there are buyers out there
So Flo has filled a need with a better mouse trap which fills a gap somewhere
There may be about 100 Kingstons and VR's out there all up plus another 100 odds and sods where people cut plastic
Now we all know what steps one goes through to get these machines up and running as well as the issues of the VR purchase
So Caruso fills a gap in that market for about 30-50 heads and thats it total demand satisfied
Now as a guess: some of these will come up with better specs during assembly so with a bit of care and some lighter moving parts they will be the semi pro version
Simple really and lets be realistic and pragmatic
When all is said and done this is despite what people think the total market is not that big, may be a total of 10-20 semi pro heads so thats the sum of the excersise
Neumann in its whole life when vinyl ruled we guess made about 1100 heads all up so Flo making anothe 50-100 in a short span is indeed a credit to the man despite what I read here
Cheers

[flozki]

yes still a lot of questions to answer.haha.
someday i start a f.a.q. promissed.

here a little more infos

mossboss got the most important point
"Is it not that the answer is simple?
People are paying about 1.5-2 K for old heads whatever the brand is "

but the main intention is that after sc-99 which i made more than 10 years ago (and where a main goal was to make as much parts equal to sx74 so we can catch 2 flies in one...)
so i was collecting my ideas and experience with all those heads. and i can tell you i repaired a lot of sx68/74 heads and i know how they look like those days. also how condition of springs and glue is after 30 or 40 years.
official neumann service stopped in 1994 or 1995 all later repairs was just pure improvisation. maybe a few heads with brand new parts until 1997. but from then on i know it for sure it was just fixing the damn thing, until vinylium started to repair neumann heads. from then on most of the critical parts could have ben replaced. but in the end a lot of them still run with 80% of its original parts, which are accelerated up to 1000G during cutting.
there are also a lot of people using u47 microphones with original diaphragm or worn out VF-14 or some replacement. can sound great. can sound shit. but at least it looks good.
but all that equipment needs serious service which must done professional.
and i want some gear where i can guarantee that.

anyway i had a little dream about my new head. how it should be without the limitation to neumann dimensions.

reason nr.1
so all meantioned above was reason number one to do it

reason nr.2
see that there is no alternative for cheap heads. i am always a little shocked to see that people pay for an old grampian $1500 or any other head where you can not get service or stylii.
so there must be a new cheap solution. and there was no stereo head for that money.

and the high volume of heads for this segments help to share the development costs. out of this i can build the pro-heads.
for sure they need more work and more time to buld and also more expensive parts for example for the feedback system.
and also there is a huge learning curve whit building the heads. so this is why i can make a cheap amateur head

because i am free with all dimension the head will not be plug and play on a sal74. maybe it will work but all the parameters in the SAL are optimised for a sx74 head. there are also peole running ortofon racks with sx74 heads. a lot of modifications have to be done for best results. this is just normal.
but i am not interested in a plug and play solution it because i want to make something new. hopefully better. and the more parameters are free the better.
i am anyway not a big fan of SAL74 rack, i prefer stripped down, reduced to the max amps (and not german over engineered tech orgies) and so for me this is a great benefit to go for something new.
also again you will cut with a brand new system not 40 year old stuff that needs constant service,repair.
but i can understand someone who master professional wants a plug and play head.
so a clear NO for the moment, until someone of I come with the necessary modifications for SAL.
but what is thinkable is a 2nd amp rack. you just plug in the head on the other amp and you are ready to go.


mechanically it fits on a neumann. i use a vms80 and this is no problem.

and if you can use it to cut masters is a question of personal taste.
milions of records have been mastered on grampian maybe even on presto heads. on westrex 3A,3B whatever in the end it only counts that you can cut a laquer that you can send in to a pressingplant.
this is called a master.
if it useable to cut masters the experience of the user will tell.
i will master records with the caruso someday.

[concretecowboy71]

This is all great information.

Thanks for providing this. I think it clears up a lot of questions that I had about how this might or might not work for me.

I appreciate your hard work and it looks like you have a receptive market.

[tragwag]

thank you for this info.
I really appreciate your help and dedication to furthering the craft!
as a newer guy it's always good to learn what people use, and how people intend to keep using the same sort of equipment in the future. (trading a caruso for a neumann head etc)

[mossboss]

Well I am glad that Flo cleared up some "mystery" for a lot of people
I suppose not been technically aware of whats in a head is difficult to figure out what is going on
Not sure if Flo is saying the first lot will finance the pro version or the pro version would be selected than be provided with better internal parts
Either way it does not matter
On another point I was guessing that there was an amp to suit in the making as well which is now stated by the man
I guessed that it would have been the next step as the preamp was pointing in that direction
Flo is right! why would any one want the German tech orgy?
Over engineered over designed and as pointed out 40 odd Years Old
Much better designs as well as gear around now days without all the rather complicated signal path that is resident in any Neumann lathe
Nevertheless The Neumann lathe as well as the Scully's work as they have for many years, one needs to keep them going, we do simple as that,
We all have a fair investment in these machines, besides, there is nothing else around right now any way, so no choice really is there?
Cheers

[mosfet]

There is some "old is good" mentality, especially when it comes to any sort of audio electronics. What requirements does an amp has to fulfill when feeding a head except from providing the right power and being transparent?

Hm. What i read about flo's project there was no mystery. It has all been said in other threads and on his page before or?