Can anyone identify this lathe?

Post: # 626Unread post **flashbk13** Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:36 am

Hi All,
I'm new here and to record cutting and am excited by this site

. I just picked up this lathe (ebay item 260017043755) and all it has
stenciled on the cabinet and embossed on several parts is Paramount
Pictures. Can anyone identify who actually made this or is it possible
that Paramount actually did? Looks like a Westrex. No markings at all on the underside of the motor board or internal parts (very clean inside, looks unused, all rubber still good after around 70 years

). Can anyone tell the possible dates this could have been made? I'm guessing 1930's due to the horseshoe magnet cutting head and the typical cloth covered wood cabinet. I'll take better pics of it, but for now I just point you to the ended auction pics. This has a 16" flywheel platter (flywheel mounted under the platter) and cuts both directions upto 14". The lathe is mechanically driven by a cord and pully system connected to the underside of the platter and the platter is rim driven by the flywheel. Is there a good lathe page with good pics of portable (I use that term loosly) cutters? One odd thing (of several) about this is that ALL of the connections to this (AC/DC, audio in and out) are all done thru that large Jones plug on the lower right side. On the left, there are two 1/4" jacks (one in what looks like a tone arm mount or maybe the microscope? and the other into the motor board maybe for the mic? Both are wired). This at one time had an external amp power supply, but seller lost it

. Any info on this would be great. Thank you, Rick.

Reply

Post: # 633Unread post **tsullivan** Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:48 am

I think what you have there is an interesting collectors piece, but you have a ways to go before cutting your first record. The main thing is that you didn't get the amplifier with it, so you really don't have a complete recorder yet. I saw that auction while it was still in progress, but steered clear of it for that reason. But because it has the name of a movie studio on it, its likely it was used to cut the sound tracks for the first "talking" motion pictures. Thats how the first "talkies" were made, using the Western Electric Vitaphone system, before sound-on-film optical recording was invented. That cutting head would probably date it to that time period, the late 20's - early 30's. Electronic recording was brand new at the time.

Also, do I understand it correctly that this turntable does not even have a motor? That flywheel and cord and pulley system you describe indicates to me that it had some kind of external drive for synchronizing it to a camera for lip sync.

So, I think this piece is more interesting from a historical standpoint, but not to actually use. You might have a real gem there, and it deserves more research. Who knows, maybe it was used to cut the sound track for "The Jazz Singer", although that was a Warner film. If you can find "Western Electric" or "Vitaphone" anywhere on this unit, then thats what it was used for.

Tom

Post: # 634Unread post **tsullivan** Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:13 pm

Just looking at the auction again, I noticed that according to the auction, the lathe did not sell. Did you contact the seller and buy it outside of ebay? How much did you pay for it?

Tom

Post: # 639Unread post **cuttercollector** Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:17 pm

There is a guy Nicholas Bergh, who has researched and documented the entire Vitaphone sustem and displayed it for an AES Convention. I don't think that lathe looks anything like the one in question here.
If it is self contained and has a drive motor, you might make it functional by trying to drive the head with some other amp setup. Obviously you would need to determine the impedance of the head. Might be 600 ohm especially considering how old it is. But you can find power amps with 600 ohm outputs or use a transformer. And an active speaker impedance checker will tell you the head impedance. Actually even a DC volt ohm meter should give you a clue if it's in the 8-16 ohm range or higher.

Post: # 640Unread post **flashbk13** Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:35 pm

Hi Tom and Cuttercollector,
Thank you for the info. This has the motor (very large, don't know if its DC or AC). It drives the flywheel. The cord and pully system drives the over head lathe. No external drive system is needed, except the amp/ power supply. I'm told this cuts both in and out, but I don'l see a physical means to change directions, but there is a push button down by that jones plug which is connected to a small relay, so it may reverse the motor (really need to start tracing wiring to get this running) which would indicate DC. Didn't see a plate on the motor, but I only did a quick look under the hood for markings (all of the parts that are marked Paramount were actually cast that way, not inscribed). This also has a neon strobe light on the lower right side (near that button) that shines on the dots on the side of the platter (like a Techinics table), but I didn't see a variable pitch control. I have alot to learn about this cutter, but that's part of the fun. Maybe I do have a gem here

As for the auction, I contacted the seller after it closed as I thought he wanted too much for it without the amp (and who knows what else is missing). I got it for $500. I'll take my own pics of this and post the links here. Thank you, Rick.

Post: # 641Unread post **flashbk13** Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:48 am

Post: # 642Unread post **tsullivan** Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:24 am

The Vitaphone system was used by Warner Bros and is probably the most well known of the early sound-on-disk motion picture systems. But all the movie studios were involved in sound-on-disk, including Paramount.

The motor should have a nameplate on it telling the speed, voltage, AC or DC, cycles if AC, and amps. But its pretty easy to tell an AC motor from a DC. A DC motor will have a commutator and brushes, and you will feel the brushes drag when you rotate the shaft by hand. An AC motor will have no brushes. Also, a DC motor, unless it has a permanent magnet, will not reverse rotation just by switching the polarity. The leadscrew was probably reversed by switching the belt, running it straight for one direction, and twisting it 180 degrees on one pulley to reverse it.

Have you figured out what speed the turntable runs at? The early Vitaphone disks were recorded at 33 1/3 rpm, probably the first use of that speed, and it was chosen so they could get 11 minutes on one side of a disk. 11 minutes was the running time of one reel of film, so they wanted a disk that ran that long. Also, the Vitaphone disks were cut inside - out. That was probably to make it easier for the projectionist to sync up the film and disk. There was a cue mark on the disk label that the needle was set at, then the film was loaded in the projector with a marked frame in the film gate, then both turntable and projector started up at the same time. So if your cutter runs at 33 1/3 and can be set to cut inside-out, it very likely was used for sound-on-disk films. I haven't been able to find out anything about what sound-on-dick system Paramount used, but there is plenty out there about Vitaphone.

Very interesting pictures, but would like to see some of the underside, showing the motor and drive system.

Tom

Post: # 643Unread post **cuttercollector** Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:00 pm

So, it looks as if the lathe drives from the table via some sort of "dial cord" string and pulley system. There were many small manufacturers and indeed I haver seen some one off (I think) machine shop made units. A lathe was not an impossible project to buy some parts and make others for a competent machine shop in that era. They would have probably bought a head from Audax or some such. Motor from a manufacturer etc. Many of the studios in fact had big shops and built a lot of custom equipment. It still doesn't look anything like the Vitaphone equipment I saw. And wasn't that Warner Brothers? Not Paramount. I know the company Radiotone built lathes in the Southern California area, but again it doesn't look like any of the ones I have seen or have from them. It looks a little like some pictures of a very old portable Neumann lathe I have seen. But I don't think so . Actually it looks a bit "home made" in your better pictures. Does it have one of those vibrating reed "meters" on it to indicate 60Hz. ? That plus the strobe would indicate AC operation to me. The lamp for all old strobes like that was neon and synchronized with the AC power line 60Hz. The inside out/ outside in change was probably acomplished mechanically somehow. If the motor drives the turntable, it always has to go the same direction anyway. So I doubt the need for a DC reversing motor.
Did you try and determine the head impedance yet?

Post: # 676Unread post **flashbk13** Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:42 pm

Hi All,
Here's links to the inside pics of this lathe. I looked at the motor and can't find an info. plate....not sure if it has brushes or not. Hopefully, someone can tell from the pics. The smaller can in the pics is the hours meter, not the motor. Thank you, Rick.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/flashbk13/Lathe/open4.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/flashbk13/Lathe/open3.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/flashbk13/Lathe/open2.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/flashbk13/Lathe/open1.jpg

Post: # 677Unread post **tsullivan** Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:02 am

Hi,
Well it looks like some high quality construction down there. The neatly laced cable bundles almost look like it might have been built for the military. Of course nowadays we would use plastic cable ties to fasten wires together in a bundle, but I used to work with an old technician who said that all real technicians should know how to lace cables together with lacing cord, and he actually used to keep a spool of it around. Makes it kind of hard to trace wires that way. Have no idea where he got it. I'll stick with the plastic ties, thank you. The motor looks like its fully enclosed, so you can't tell too much about it. I don't see any external brush holders, so chances are its standard 120 v AC. But just in case, you should try bringing the voltage up slowly with a Variac. If you don't have one of those, connect about a 40 or 60 watt light bulb in series with the AC line. If the motor is 120 volt AC, it should start up and the bulb should light dimly. If the motor is a direct short, the bulb will light at full brilliance. You might have to fool around with different wattage bulbs depending on how much current the motor draws. This is an old TV technicians trick when plugging in a TV with unknown defects. The light bulb acts like a current limiter and keeps from blowing fuses and frying other components.

If this was built for the military, then the motor could be 120 volt, but for 400 Hz. It would overheat very badly if fed 60 Hz and run way too slow. But thats a longshot.

So I think its time to continue the discovery process and power this thing up. Good luck!

Tom

Post: # 679Unread post **flashbk13** Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:54 pm

Hi Tom,
I'll have to trace out the wiring to see how to connect it as everything connects thru that Jones plug. Would they have ran 120v thru that along with everything else? There are also two 1/4" jacks on the left side (one directly in the motor board and the other inside that metal collar which looks like a tone arm mount or maybe the microscope?). i'll have to dig in deeper to see if there is a tag on the motor, but first inspection I didn't see one. It is not a military unit, so it should be 60 hz (if ac, which I believe it is as I didn't see brush mounting on the case). I have a variac and will use that as you described earlier once i'm sure it is ac. It is very clean inside there, no dust or oil, almost looks unused! i'll keep the group posted, Rick.

Post: # 698Unread post **flashbk13** Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:42 pm

Hi all,
I just found out some more info from NICHOLAS BERGH who is very knowledgeable in "the sound industry" in LA" and says that "my Paramount Lathe was not used to record Vitaphone disc soundtracks, but rather synchronous music recording for playback on the set. It is probably from the late 1930s. Most of the parts are from a McDonald lathe, which was made in Hollywood. For example, the overhead is a McDonald. The motor is probably AC. There are two strobes on your turntable so it probably ran at both 33.3 and 78rpm. " Rick.

Post: # 710Unread post **flashbk13** Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:13 am

Hi all,
Any interest in this lathe? I think i'll sell it and stick with a more traditional lathe. Don't want to butcher up this one to do mods so I can use it. It is a better museum piece for someone's collection than for me trying to make it run without the proper support equipment. I would sell it for what I have in it, $500/ OBO, plus shipping and packing store fees. See earlier replies to this thread for the pics links and details that I have on it. Thank you, Rick.

Post: # 1814Unread post **Estrada** Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:47 am

Hi there everyone,

My name is Craig, I bought this lathe from Rick at the end of last year. I've just joined this site and I'm really enjoying reading through all the various posts. It's great to see that there are so many people out there who are interested in record cutting.

So far I have got as far as powering the lathe up after tracing the power wires to the Jones connector and finding an appropriate transformer (I'm in New Zealand and we run on 230v). Mechanically it seems to work farily well. The speed does not seem to be quite right so I need to figure out a way of fine tuning it either mechanically or electrically. I have worked out that it only has one speed, 33 1/3 RPM. There are two lines of dots on the platter for measuring speed with the strobe light, one is for use with 50hz power supply, the other for 60hz power supply.

I have ordered a couple of cutting stylus' so I can test the cutting head out, I would like to have cut some test records by the end of the year but it will deoend on how much time I can spare.

I really like this machine a lot. I think it is quite unique and hopefully I will make some great sounding records. Thanks

Post: # 1818Unread post **flashbk13** Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:00 am

Hi Craig,
Glad you started getting it to work. It is a nice lathe. Not sure how good of recording that old style cutter head will yield, but you could always put a modern head on it. Please keep us posted, Rick.

Post: # 1819Unread post **Estrada** Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:17 am

Hi Rick,

Yes I agree that the limiting factor for this machine in terms of sound quality will be the cutting head. I am quite keen on the idea of getting a stereo cutting head for it but for now I'll take it one step at a time and work with the head it has. Will keep you up to date on progress.

Thanks
Craig

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