lacquer formulas : with some reverse engineering?

[flozki]

hello
i had access to a nice tool today and i like to share the first results.
it is a perking-elmer ftir.
what an ftir iexactly does you can read here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform_spectroscopy

in short:you can analyze a sample for its content.

so i took some samples of my chip jar.
must be apollo lacquers, maybe some transco's as well.
not very scientific for the moment. but i will publish more.
next ones with lot number and brand.
would also be interesting to do it with old laquers. i have pyral from 1964 and 1989. and maybe you can send me some. i just need a piece of about 1-2mm.

check here:


on the screenshot you can see spectral lines of two different laquer samples.
i think apollo
and then the spectral lines of nitro-celulose and of castor oil.

i know almost nothing yet about ftir. but maybe there is someone out who knows about that stuff or can help to find out all the ingredients of the different laquer brands...

maybe i will also do an updated analysis of apollo, transco and mdc laquers. that could help to understand why a particular laquer makes trouble... if the composition changes, it shows clearly on the spectral lines...
f.

[Aussie0zborn]

Very intersting. Analyzing Pyral lacquers could really help if someone wanted to make their own.

Maybe you could ask Rhone Poulenc in France (the makers of Pyral lacquers way back in the day) if they could just give you the formula for the sake of "keeping vinyl alive" ??? You might get lucky!

[Simon]

I have a stack of old dead stock vintage discs

Tell me if you want me to do some scraping.

[Maistrow]

I have the formulas for Apollo and Transco disks that my father developed for them in the mid 70's. The screen shot has some of the parts to the formula but it is missing some key items, such as solvents, plastizizers, black die, etc.

[emorritt]

Your father wouldn't happen to be George Sutheim? I don't recall when he left Audio Devices, but I know he did some consulting work in the lacquer disk industry after he left there. I have his book on emulsions. Problem is even with the formula, you'll need a curtain coater to correctly do the coating job, no matter what substrate you choose. I've seen used ones that would work go on eBay for around $18,000...

[flozki]

to maistrow:
yes i think it would be great to see the formulas here.
or even better if you start to produce laquers...
but it does not really help the community if we know that there exist some formulas. i know they have some formulas at apollo as well. but so what.

with the "FT-IR" you see baiscally everything whats inside. but you have to know what you are looking for. so this is just a start and i am not a crack in "FT-IR".
this is why i publish it. hope that someone can help here out.
the other reason is that these curves can act as independant qualitiy check.

all these problems "manufacturer A or manufacturer B changed something in his formula...OR ...we have problems to process laquers from A or B "
can be checked very quickly now. if the curve is the same as the reference curve, we know they still cook with same ingredients. and the problem must be somewhere else...
quite practial. also to understand what changed during the time.
so i try to put a reference archive of these curves.
different brands. ages. even different batches from transco, apollo, mdc

and again if someone has the time to decode all these curves. would be great.

also any ideas about fillers, pigments, additives...let me know.
i dont know where to search for the moment.

[emorritt]

Flo I noticed Maistrow said that the solvents were missing; these probably wouldn't be easily identifiable in an analysis like you're doing because as the lacquer dries, these elements evaporate. There may be traces, but most solvents don't leave much once dried. This is where it would be nice to know the formulas so you could see what's missing, or at least showing up in trace amounts so it could be identified for the reasons you outlined.

[blacknwhite]

Flo,

any chance that, in the interest of Keeping Vinyl Alive , you might be willing to register as a user at this "Chemical Forums" site, and re-post this post over there? It may give you the answer needed to fully unlock the lacquer coating formula, and then you could point us to the URL for your thread:

http://www.chemicalforums.com



They have a sub-forum area called "Chemical Engineering Forum", where lots of people are asking "HOW-TO" questions.

I registered over there just now to see if you already posted there, but didn't find any posts on the forum with either the word "laquer" or "lacquer" in the title (except one unrelated topic)...

Thanks,
- Bob

[flozki]

oh thanks for the link. i will do whenever i have the time to post it there...
i guess thats the place to ask...

[Maistrow]

To answer Emorritt’s question, my father’s name is Cy Leeper who was a paint chemist that specialized in lacquer coatings. He worked with a man named Ernie Knight who owned Diacoustic laboratories in the Los Angeles area. Ernie was the west coast distributor for Scully, Capps, Audio Disk, Micro Point and other audio related recording and disk cutting equipment and products. Since then both long have passed on. Ernie came to my father’s paint plant looking for a way to refine a better formula for disk cutting. They both worked on this project for some time. After a lot of R&D, three different types of formulas were manufactured and shipped to Audio Disk and Transco for production of recording blanks. I think this went on for some time up in till the mid 70’s and I don’t know what happened after that. This is what I am told from my Father a long time ago. As far as posting the formulas on this forum I don’t wish to do this at this time. I am looking for a manufacturing group who may want to start the production of lacquer recording blanks. I would then perhaps work out some type of royalty on each disk made or a licensing agreement for the formulas.

[Aussie0zborn]

...Ernie was the west coast distributor for Scully, Capps, Audio Disk, Micro Point and other audio related recording and disk cutting equipment and products....

Mr Knight was also a distributor for Transco in the late 80s.

Maistrow: While your formulations might be dated it is not unreasonable to want to exact a royalty from their use. The chance of anyone starting a professional lacquer disc manufacturing facility from scratch however is probably very slim.

[Maistrow]

Hi Aussie0zborn,
You bring up some good points. Most formulas that are used today would be outdated. Any lacquer formula will need to be adapted for there environment, manufacturing plant and equipment that they will be used in. Heat, cold, humidity, temperature and altitude all play a part in the coating of the disk along with the noise factor of the disk. Like with any paint formula used in manufacturing there is all ways some "tweaking" that will need to be done due to these factors. Usually some additions or reductions to certain components of the formula to make it work right in manufacturing but most importantly to manufacture a disk with low noise surface. Yes, I agree that trying to start a plant to manufacture disks would be a massive cost right now. Perhaps over a million plus dollars or euros. And in this economy? It could be a tough sale. And just what is the market for disks? What I don't understand on this thread, is why are the lacquer formulas such a important topic? Are we trying to reinvent the wheel again?

[Aussie0zborn]

Mr Maistrow,

If you haven't noticed there is a lot of DIY (Do-It-Yourself) going on here - people with lots of inspiration, limited budgets, and a desire to cut records, all without any real technical support. Some people have made their own lathes, others have rebuilt lathes that we were throwing away just twenty years ago becasue they weren't worth the space they were occupying. Scehemtaics, advice and tips are exchanged freely simply becasue we all want to keep vinyl alive.

What makes this hobby difficult, is the lack of equipment, the technology is not supported, and... the cost of lacquer discs. Apollo's acquisition of Transco has created a virtual monoploy as the only other lacquer disc manufacturer keeps a low profile and their discs are sold through dealers making them even more expensive (so Im told). As a hobby and with most people being being self-taught, you can imagine the number of stylli and lacquer discs that they waste while trying to learn. Its a vey expensive hobby and the learning curve is longer than it should be as everybody has a limited amount of money they can waste!!!

With the DIY spirit of0 this forum, people who have made lathes and rebuilt cutterheads that were supposedly never going to work again, there is a notion that if you could make your own lacquers (event if they're not production quality) you could cut until you mastered the art without worrying about the cost of lacquers.

I dont doubt that Ernie Knight commissioned the formulation of a lacquer but when I dealt with him in the late 80s he was the agent for Transco and he offered a stylus re-sharpening service through his business Diacoustic Laboratory. He never offered us any other brand of lacquer disc so perhaps this formulation never went too far. He was also the Transco agent for South America.

In any case, the possibility of someone building a milliion dollar plant and then firnding your formulation is not on par with the other brands is pretty slim. If you have no use for it, Im sure a few people here might want to give it a try.

I'd say this is the reason for the interest in lacquer formulae not becasue anybody wants to re-invent the wheel... we just want cheaper tyres to drive our hobby to new heights!!

[mossboss]

Well I did had a long and fruitless exchange of mail with you on this very subject some months ago I am not sure why you are bringing it up again
Your post on this are still here and my mail exchange with you is still on record
Is there a change of heart there Mr Maistrow or you are giving it another dry run so as to see if there is any fish baiting Not sure
Mike has put it quite succinctly on his post which if my memory serves me well he did the same when you first posted this up some time back
with the comment "Or it involves money than"
If I was to recall the mail you where looking to exchange some formulas you have for the price of a VMS around the $30 K mark with no guaranty as to they suitability apart from the fact that they did get used by some lacquer manufacturer in the past
I am not sure where or who would be prepared to do that sight unseen or without any proof of suitability But than again you just never know
Good luck with it all I am certainly one to stay out of this as I have already been down this path with you dear sir
May be if you where to do some pilot production with your formulas so as to asses its suitability today there may be half a change in my view of someone offering something
The proof of the pudding is in the eating
Cheers

[Maistrow]

Hello,
Well since this subject came up again, I thought I would just post what I have available for the formulas and any interest at concerning a business venture or opportunity. As far as a guaranty, I would fully stand behind my formulas and work closely with a plant in the manufacturing of blanks to their complete satisfaction.

[blacknwhite]

oh thanks for the link. i will do whenever i have the time to post it there...
i guess thats the place to ask...

Hi Flo,

I'm sure you're very busy with the Caruso cutterhead, but, any chance you've made any progress asking around here about the Secret Sauce formula?,

Thanks,

- Bob

[mossboss]

Well I have lost track of this thread for a while So Bobs latest entry forced me to Read the last couple of post's
So Mike the Maistrow went fishing again got no fish rather a rebuff from a few of us and went back in his lair
It is interesting to see that he never engaged so as to clear up his position on the whole thing in reference to Mr Knight who's estate may have the rights to whatever he is offering here
He did not even replied to the fact that he cannot possibly stand behind the product as it has or had no succes according to your sources
Now if my memory serves me well his brother still manufactures lacquers and is still involved in the finishing industry
So how hard would it be for him to get his brother to mix up some product, say 100 Gallons of the "sauce" and send it off to the likes of Flo, Me, Bob, yourself, and a few others here?
Not hard I would have thought
For about $250 he can dispell all doubt in this as well as his reputation which I would have thought has been rather rattled or at least has been put to doubt as to his bona fides here
No I would not want it for nothing I would be prepared to pay for the "sample" I am sure so would every one else
He than can make as much of the stuff as is required on the proviso it works I am sure it can be a very lucrative little niche market for the man He than make as much money as it is possible out of it and why not?
Given it is even overpriced it will be at a lot lower cost than current sources of the finished product
However he is in my view is trying to sell a "pig in a bag" You pay me I will give you the 3 to 6 lines of the formula and I will stand behind it after I got the money and if it does not work it is the equipment you are using not the recipe so if you do this that or the other it will be fine and so on and so on
Come in spinner! You cannot bet on the seven when you shooting craps
Cheers

[flozki]

no news yet..i asked a few. but i hope to do another session with the analyzer....
also no luck to get the formulas....not even a price received...hehe

[Aussie0zborn]

Talk about a long shot.... I emailed Pyral Products in France about the Pyral lacquer discs that were made by Rhone Poulenc and asked them if they still have the formula. They explained that Pyral was sold by Rhone Poulenc to BASF and then somebody else and somebody else before it was sold to the current owners and so they do not have that formula.

Unless a former employee of Rhone Poulenc has a copy of the formula at home, then this formula may be lost forever.

[mossboss]

I have already posted up a formula which has worked well in shubby experiments
Why all this tooing and throwing I do not understand
There is also a long post on the issues I encountered
Once again it needs refining but it is agood starting point
The problem is that the solvents evaporate to quick leaving vortice holes
Also it need to have a controlled environment under some pressure so as to stop this rapid evaporation Cleanliness is a given
My experimnts with that formula where very promising indeed
Cheers