Cost of Equipment in 1989 : Sony 1630 / Used Neumann VMS82

[Aussie0zborn]

Before the internet it was very hard to find suppliers of equipment for the vinyl record industry. The network that we have now via interent did not exist and this gave the large multinational companies a competitive edge over the independent cutting studio/plating shop/pressing plant. Finding used gear was not as easy as it is now.

We somehow came across a nice chap by the name of Tony Batchelor at TAM Studio located at 13A Hamilton Way, London N3 1AN, England who sold used disc cutting equipment. TAM Studio also offered us a USED Neumann VMS82 DMM lathe on 25-JUN-89 that they would soon be selling for the the special knock-down price of only GBP 130,000-00. I was quite happy with our VMS70 system which was the only complete Neumann disc cutting suite in Australia and I always did like the smell of a freshly cut lacquer so no need to switch to DMM !!

We had some surplus gear which TAM Studio offered to buy. For our HAECO SC1 cutterhead he offered GBP 100-00 only to "add to their historical collection of gear" but we would have to pay the cost of air mail to send it to London. I sold it to an Australian Government department instead for AUD $5,000 and when packing it I dropped it and a bit broke off. They never used it and never complained. I still talk to the guy who organised the purchase there. We had never used it and today I find that Bernie Grundman Mastering only uses the HAECO SC1 cutterhead and nothing else !!

This was the last HAECO cutterhead ever made and it was made after Howard Holzer's death and after the closure of Holzer Audio Engineering Company. A HAECO SC1 had been sent to he USA for repairs by the Australian owner. After repair it was lost in the mail. It was insured for only $500. The owner contacted Mrs Holzer who after finding the parts in her garage got a former employee to make it for the $500 insurance money. This would have to be the cheapest new cutterhead ever (not including Caruso, ofcourse).

Before the advent of DAT, studios were beginning to mix down to Sony F1 digital on Beta video cassette and the big boys were recording to Sony 1630 on U-Matic video cassette. We needed to install a digital delay line for the Sony F1 masters. TAM Studio suggested the Klark Teknik DN775. Can't find his quote but the Australian distributors of Klark Teknik at that time quoted us AUD $ 6,623-00 + 22% Sales Tax in June 1989.

It was a 1RU device with a toggle switch to select delay times for 45rpm or 33.3rpm. Other delay times up to 8.5 seconds could also be set. Features : 16 bit Linear AD/DA converters, 20Hz-25kHz bandwidth, greater than 90dB dynamic range.

So total cost to cut from Sony F1 digital masters was :

The cost of a Sony Batamax video player ($500) + Sony F1 processor ($1,000 ????) + Klark Teknik DN775 Digital Delay ($6623-00) was over $8,000 + 22% Sales Tax.

SONY 1630 DIGITAL SYSTEM

Quotation from Sony Australia dated 23-JUN-89 :

PCM-1630 Digital Audio Processor AUD $ 24,004-00
PCM-2500 Pro-DAT Studio Recorder $ 4,346-00
DMR-2000 Digital MAster Recorder $ 13,347-00
K1154 Delay Board for PCM-1630 $ 3,000-00

TOTAL COST : AUD $44,697-00 + 22% Sales Tax

These days ofcourse you just use a CD player or computer, run it through a digtal delay line for a couple of grand and start cutting from digital masters. Total cost : less than $3,000.

[opcode66]

Actually even cheaper. I don't use a digital delay. My audio device has 8 balanced outs. So, in my DAW I have the program material on two tracks. One starts at 0 and plays only to the Left and Right of the Pitch Computer. A Second track starts at 1.1 seconds for 33 1/3 and plays out left and right to the Cutterhead and another left to the Pitch Computer. Makes things simple. I created a 33 1/3 ProTools template that has a marker for the second track and the nudge time set to 1.1 so it is easy to plop a new track into the template. I also have some basic processing going on in the template to do the low rolloff, high rolloff and flattening of bass below 500 hz. If I have a properly mastered track I can set it up and cut it in minutes.

[JayDC]

please explain more in dept, and the reasoning...

[opcode66]

Trying to pass my audio through as few devices as possible. That's all. And, at this point, I don't have a 2K - 3K delay unit... And, why use a delay when the computer is fully capable of doing the exact same thing for me with no alteration of the audio stream. Any time you pass audio through a peice of outboard gear you pick up some artifacts. Mostly this is good with analog gear. Sometimes not so much with certain digital pieces. I just feel more comfortable doing it this way than passing my audio through another digital a/d d/a conversion.

[JayDC]

wait no.. why is the delay needed in the first place?.. I'm missing something here i think..

[subkontrabob]

wait no.. why is the delay needed in the first place?.. I'm missing something here i think..

for variable pitch, changing LPI according to program levels. The pitch computer needs to know "in advance" what will happen in the next groove, so it will be able e.g. to increase pitch if there will be high levels and lots of bass, or decrease pitch if there is going to be silence. Because time machines haven't been invented yet , the only practical way is to delay the signal that goes to the cutterhead, like opcode explained.

Neat idea with the PT session template btw!

[opcode66]

Thanks subkontrabob. I mean why use another piece of gear when my DAW and audio device and do it? Makes sense to me this way.

[JayDC]

for variable pitch, changing LPI according to program levels. The pitch computer needs to know "in advance" what will happen in the next groove, so it will be able e.g. to increase pitch if there will be high levels and lots of bass, or decrease pitch if there is going to be silence. Because time machines haven't been invented yet , the only practical way is to delay the signal that goes to the cutterhead, like opcode explained.

Sounds like they should have built the delay into the pitch computer in the first place.. I am highly surprised that a modern software/hardware combination has not come about.. Seems like loading a wav file into the "Lathe Control Software" would be the best way to do it really..

[opcode66]

Sounds like they should have built the delay into the pitch computer in the first place.. I am highly surprised that a modern software/hardware combination has not come about.. Seems like loading a wav file into the "Lathe Control Software" would be the best way to do it really..

Well, that's a good point. Not sure why Neumann didn't include a built in delay whose delay time would be controlled by the Program Control Box. My guess is that it probably had to do with the expense or nonexistance of a 1.1 second delay unit in 1974 if they even existed outside of a tape delay unit...

I suppose if someone was independantly wealthy they could have a computer running custom software built into a VMS70 or 80 to replace the PitchDepth computer and possibly a number of other functions provided by the Program Control Box. The computer could be paired with a custom USB device to interface with the lathe. Also could have a high end audio device built in to feed signal to the amp rack. Hmm, that sounds like a fun project....

[mossboss]

Hey Guys
This is quite an interesting thread But it does put a smile on my face as well
In 1974 to have anything like a solid state piece of equipment was like dream stuff as valves for high power output was still the rule
MJ 422 output transistors as used on the 74 Rack where made for Auto ignition applications not for Audio output
Neumann adopted them for the purpose as we all know
2N 3055 at 110 odd watts as a GP output trannie was about as good as one got however both types where quite expensive commodities
Comms in computers did not really exists that is for sure
Apart from some rudimentary form of ebcdic or ascii code that was it
Telexes was the form of communications with paper type punched for sending or receiving driving a rather smart electric typewriter like device
To talk about any kind of comms let alone USB regardless of how wealthy one was it points out to me the difference having have to do with, rather than choosing as there was no choice
We are talking 1974 now assuming some 2-6 odd years development after the 68 that is even further back into the realm of dreams that is for sure
Having grown up through the age of valves to solid state and starting with a Tandy TRS 80 computer to Dual Pentiums what is available today is quite marvellous really
I do remember seeing for the first time some computer comms in 1983-4 where there was a single word "hello" on a phopshor green computer screen transmitted from a remote site on a dedicated telephone line that floored me The fact that it took a minute or two to come through did not matter It was like magic
I am amazed at what people think could have be done in those days based on what is available today it was just not possible
And guess what!
No!!!! you need not have been there apart from listening to some absolutely fantastic music from famous bands in so far as technology applied to music related stuff is concerned we never had it better
What we have today far exceeds what was available those days past in all manner of things including the most important aspect affordability
As Mikes post indicates the cost of the used 82 was certainly the price of about 5-6 average homes or 3 very large decent size homes in very decent areas
Average UK House price in 1984 = £29106. 1983. £26.4k. Average UK House price in 1983 = £26471. 1982. £23.6k. Average UK House price in 1982 = £23644 ...
Average house price Today
£246,387
House type Average price
Detached £352,699
Semi-detached £210,320
Terrace £200,044
Flat £227,592
Today that would equate to anywhere between 1.0 -3.0 Million Pounds
It also seems to me that when people start talking about the cost of a cutting lathe they have no appreciation of what these things where worth on the days when Vinyl ruled
What these people of the VR or the Kingston or Vinilium or whoever want price ways for their products now days for one of these machine pales into insignificance when compared with prices of days gone
That is for sure
Also I do have a brochure for a K8 Presto (I think) advertising it for around the $700 odd dollars which was about $100-200 odd more than the price of a 5 window V8 Ford Sedan and this was no slouch of a motor either
From an old ad
Price from $510
A beautiful ford car with new style new driving ease and new safety and includes easier steering and new design steel wheels
So here we are
What a bargain that would have been at the super knock down price hey?
Cheers

[TotalSonic]

t Bernie Grundman Mastering only uses the HAECO SC1 cutterhead and nothing else !!

Just a small point of factual clarification - but Bernie Grundman uses the Haeco SC-2 and not the SC-1.

The SC-2 is essentially a clone of the Westrex 3D with slightly different shaped magnets in a relatively taller and less deep housing. The late Ron Murphy of National Sound Corporation (and famous for cutting some seminal Detroit techno sides) also used the SC-2.

Where as the earlier and smaller SC-1 from my understanding was fluid rather than feedback damped (although I've heard that it also possibly had motional feedback for the lower frequencies only similar to what the Grampian feedback cutter heads used).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[JayDC]

What we have today far exceeds what was available those days past in all manner of things including the most important aspect affordability

This is a great point, and even though there is really no need, nor demand, maybe it's time to take all the awesome stuff we as a race have learned since the old days, and start designing a new lathe.. and not one that straps onto a DJ turntable...

One thing I have been thinking about is "quiet steel" that they use in cars today..

so you make the lathe out of hollow aluminum, and fill the cavities with expanding foam. saves a little on metal, keeps the weight down, and provides rock solid dampening from vibrations.. Just a thought

[subkontrabob]

so you make the lathe out of hollow aluminum, and fill the cavities with expanding foam. saves a little on metal, keeps the weight down, and provides rock solid dampening from vibrations.. Just a thought

as far as I can tell, the base of the Neumann AM31 I've used is hollow and made out of aluminium, but I didn't see any foam

[JayDC]

Well I don't see any harm in going to the hardware store, and grabbing a couple cans of expanding foam insulation, and filling it. Unless there are moving parts, then your going to need something cover those.

Just be careful, it could get messy

[philbrown]

[quote="mossboss"]Hey Guys
This is quite an interesting thread But it does put a smile on my face as well
In 1974 to have anything like a solid state piece of equipment was like dream stuff as valves for high power output was still the rule.
Lots snipped.

Many chuckles on this thread. I started cutting in 1971 and the concept of a delay line didn't enter one's mind. A 440 with a preview head hung off the side of the machine was state of the art.

Actually, if you can get the system to respond quickly enough you don't need preview. Remember, it's the next groove we're worried about so if the system will respond in 1/33.333 of minute you're in fat city. Old VPs full of caps charging and discharging didn't fit the bill but CBS Compudisc worked quite well and needed almost no preview at all. I believe the Capps VP was/is a Compudisc in all but name.
Phil Brown

[mossboss]

Hey Phil
Better keep it all quite man
We don't want it known that we been around that long do we?
Try 1969 and yes talk about state of the art we had a Rola tape deck modified to take a second head it was state of the art but it was just a very ordinary device
It was kept under lock and key with the threat of instant death if any one went near it
Those where horrible days
Not sure why people refer to them as the good old days
With a minimum expenditure we can now days do stuff that was in the realm of dreams in those days I guess the technology did not even exist in most instances if it did who could afford it?
Yep forgot some of it was affordable the labels could afford it and bought it
The original invoice to RCA Australia for our VMS there was $473,000 odd Dollars when the average annual salary earned was about $6500 and a house was around the $43.500 Bargain Hey
Cheers

[Serif]

...in my DAW I have the program material on two tracks. One starts at 0 and plays only to the Left and Right of the Pitch Computer. A Second track starts at 1.1 seconds for 33 1/3 and plays out left and right to the Cutterhead and another left to the Pitch Computer...

Interesting. The LS-76 pitch & depth computer needs to analyze 4 signals - three of which must be 1.8 seconds ahead of the 2 program signals for 33.333 rpm cuts (1.3 seconds ahead, for 45 rpm cuts). It needs two left channel signals: one, in advance; and one, with the program. It also needs two copies of the right channel advance signal: one, for pitch; the other, for depth calculation. Furthermore, there would need to be attenuators for pitch and depth offset adjustment in the case where the operator wants to cut using a non-cal base pitch (to preclude miscalculation of the expansions or, conversely, wasted space).

I, too, am not using A/D, post-D/A, for delay. I like working in analog, and hope to use a preview head, like SALT, eventually (though probably only for 1/2"). For now, tape to disc will just be fixed pitch. Digital, through a multi-DAC, with DAW-nudged start time for the advance set.

There are many great records with fixed or quite nearly fixed pitch. (e.g., More Bounce to the Ounce). Some program just doesn't give any breathing room, anyway. Lead in and lead out, with fast pitch and increased depth (for cueing), and reasonable banding (with expansion on audio, to avoid groove echo) is another thing.




Andrew