Rant & Questions about one off Vinyl cutting.

[Coda]

Hi, first post for me here, I'm afraid I'm in need of some advice, knowing you guys are mostly industry peeps I thought I'd give you a shout.

I've just sent this e-mail to a pressing company, they'll probably just bin it lol, but I thought perhaps some of you might be able to shed some light on some of these dilemmas.

Hello, I wonder if you might be able to help, I found your site whilst looking for pressing/cutting services who press coloured vinyl in small amounts and saw that you press really nice vinyl, would you consider pressing a (very) small amount of records for me and/or could you explain to me what my options might be exactly?

The records I wish to press would be compilation type records featuring rare out of print "Rocksteady" Reggae and dub, approx 12 tracks per record, each on coloured Vinyl with no sleeves or label art needed. I specialise in collecting and restoring old Jamaican reggae LP's and 45's and I have a fairly large collection of reasonably rare, very well restored reggae/dub recordings which I would like to get pressed for my own private collection and occasional use DJ'ing at party's etc, the runs would need to be as small as possible to keep my costs extremely low.

I don't know if you are aware of the quality/pirating issues facing this market (JA Reggae Vinyl) at the moment? But many Jamaican pressings (even current pressings) are being pirated heavily, whilst even official releases often still suffer from poor sound quality older more collectable records are even worse, scratches pop's clicks and surface noise in addition to the original poor mastering makes them even more un listenable. Using good restoration software I can usually save most of the records I buy, digitally restoring and re mastering is slow and lengthy but usually worth the work.

Unfortunately the reggae Vinyl market is being absolutely flooded with bad/pirated re-presses which makes my life (as a record buyer and collector) a complete nightmare. New Vinyl releases are becoming very limited and most older records are no longer being manufactured at all leaving only small numbers of second hand copies and counterfeits still in circulation, in fact the whole Reggae Vinyl market is almost supply less asides from a small hand full of companies such as Pressure sounds, VP and Blood and Fire (these are the largest) of what's left and about all that's left actually. This gap in the market is increasingly becoming filled by smaller labels and distribution companies who supply small amounts of work from poor quality artists or those who are actually distributing counterfeits. Many records I find I am buying these days seem to come with crackles, pops and other defects already pressed in to the Vinyl, some have cost me hundreds of pounds, I know they are counterfeits but there is no longer any way of aquiering genuine releases of most of the titles I'm interested in so I feel I am left with very little alternative.

Here are a couple of links that will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

A current E-bay sale for a Bootlegged Jamaican 7"

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Paragons-Only-Smile-Treasure-Isle-7-/190395682970?pt=UK_Records

(Note the sound clip quality and price) These 7"s are extremely common at the moment, you can search Discogs and e-bay for yourself if you wish, I found at least another 30 or so titles after having bought one accidentally myself last week, I'm sure you can understand what a nightmare this kind of thing is for record collectors like myself who just want good quality music on good quality Vinyl, this is why I'm asking for your help/advice, would pressing records for myself be a realistic alternative? What other options do I have, obviously I can't phone up the bootleggers and tell them to press better quality or learn to use software!! I think it's crazy but the original labels just don't seem to care any more, surely they would release good quality genuine pressings themselves.

Another good example, Black Jade - Contempo

http://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=Contempo&x=0&y=0

I bought two copies of this LP during the last year and sold one of them on as they cost me a fair amount as you can see from the auctions. Of the copies I bought (one from the UK and one from Germany) Both suffered (severe) surface noise, pops, crackles and even cue burn, Ironically all in exactly the same places on both records, every crackle and pop matched exactly throughout their entirety. Obviously both copies were just that (copies) made from a recording of the same original and more than likely not genuine. As I said this is a really common problem at the moment for obvious reasons.

Vinyl manufacturing and sales are dropping off which is making Vinyl collecting even harder as the remaining records left in circulation become fewer and fewer. Have a look at Greensleeves Discogs page for example, Greensleeves are the leading Reggae re-release Record lable in the UK, a quick glance at their Discogs pages and you will see they have released virtually no Vinyl for almost the last ten years.

http://www.discogs.com/label/Greensleeves+Records

This leaves Vinyl Collectors like myself who are wanting to buy a Greensleves record at the mercy of the second hand sellers with very little by way of any other options, Discogs and E-bay prices are becoming ridiculous, an average look at my own spending shows I spend between £15 and £35 per record and anything up to £200 apprx for the now out of print originals, it would be literally cheaper to press them myself at these kinds of prices and I could do so at far better quality and it would be a lot easier than having to deal with on line rip-off merchants and bidding wars and bad grading on e-bay. So I'm finding myself really out of options other than to approach companies such as yourself. If I want good quality records then I either have to have Dubplates cut or find a company who will press small (affordable) runs for me.

I don't own the copyrights to any of these recordings myself (Obviously) but I believe I am well within my rights still to do this as this is no different technically to storing audio in a different format, similar to backing up music to a computer hard drive, or a CDR, or cutting a one off Dubplate mashup, only my chosen format for storing my restoration work would ideally be Vinyl. I don't own or want a record label or even an e-bay seller account and I can assure you the pressings would not be used for commercial profit making purposes or peddled as Bootlegs or Counterfeits etc, I am simply a Vinyl lover and I want to have my restoration works of these recordings cut back on to Vinyl at a (good) quality and at as cost effective a price as I can.

I'm sure you can understand to do this through the legal pathways applying and paying for licenses for use of this kind is not really an option and should not actually be necessary for records meant for private use, least of all when none of the titles are in print and no record label is actually selling or profiting from any of them anyway, however if you are worried about this then all I can think to do would be to provide a character reference, which I could in fact get from a music industry copyright professional who knows me very well and will vouch for my being honest and of lawful intention, though I think cost is more likely to be the deciding factor.

If you feel this could be possible or have any concerns before making a decision please let me know, I sincerely hope you understand the position I am in and will consider taking on some small runs of very limited pressings at some kind of price that would be affordable to an average person, I could probably put in about one order per month for most of the foreseeable future, I'm hoping this would be more of a profitable project for your company over a longer period perhaps rather than the short term?

Many thanks.

Richard Tovell.

Did anyone check out that e-bay link? wtf was on that B-side, one side says The Parragons (Reggae legends by all accounts) "Treasure isle record" etc, the B side is some Random 90's Dance Hall dude (No one apparently) lol, it's got to be one of the worst bootlegs ever.

But seriously I'm stuck here, I feel like I'm about the only person who cares about vinyl any more, the record companies don't seem to care about what they release or who's pirating them, the bootleggers care even less and I really don't understand how any decent shop owner/seller could bring himself to swindle good money out of his customers with this shit

[subkontrabob]

if it's only one or two pieces for your personal collection, cutting one- offs would be a better idea. Plating, machine setup etc cost a lot!

[bancho]

no, man! You're no the only one who cares about that!

I also noticed that. usually these are the presses with single coloured labels, labels are off center... I can somehow recognise the bootleg... at least those obvious ones.

otherwise as subkontrabob wrote: its better to find someone to make you proper vinyl one-offs. pressing is too expensive and you have to press around 100 copies to make it worth.

[Coda]

What are these Vinyl one offs like then, are they really the same as a Vinyl pressing, like the same feel same thickness etc, I always imagined them to be more brittle than Vinyl, more like a shelack? Can anyone clue me up a little on this?

On the Pressing side of things, I'm tempted to actually do a run or two, maybe even start a label, for a couple of reasons (A) to get better quality Reggae/Dub Vinyl Back out on the market and (B) to take some business away from the Pirate's, not only the pirates but the second hand sellers who it seems only know how to ripp people off these days. I mean for god sake, it your going to press bootlegs, at least get the source material from CD, it costs like 79p, you can even download it for free these days off of just about any blog.

(this is what that track should have sounded like btw) http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=paragons+only+a+smile&x=0&y=0 Why didn't they just press that, Don't they know what Amazon is?!! and where the fck are these pirates all coming frm, China, Japan, JA, I'd really like to alert the BPI about a lot of these presses actually.

[mossboss]

Hi, first post for me here, I'm afraid I'm in need of some advice, knowing you guys are mostly industry peeps I thought I'd give you a shout.


I don't own the copyrights to any of these recordings myself (Obviously) but I believe I am well within my rights still to do this as this is no different technically to storing audio in a different format, similar to backing up music to a computer hard drive, or a CDR, or cutting a one off Dubplate mashup, only my chosen format for storing my restoration work would ideally be Vinyl. I don't own or want a record label or even an e-bay seller account and I can assure you the pressings would not be used for commercial profit making purposes or peddled as Bootlegs or Counterfeits etc, I am simply a Vinyl lover and I want to have my restoration works of these recordings cut back on to Vinyl at a (good) quality and at as cost effective a price as I can.


If you feel this could be possible or have any concerns before making a decision please let me know, I sincerely hope you understand the position I am in and will consider taking on some small runs of very limited pressings at some kind of price that would be affordable to an average person, I could probably put in about one order per month for most of the foreseeable future, I'm hoping this would be more of a profitable project for your company over a longer period perhaps rather than the short term?

Many thanks.

Richard Tovell.[/i]

Did anyone check out that e-bay link? wtf was on that B-side, one side says The Parragons (Reggae legends by all accounts) "Treasure isle record" etc, the B side is some Random 90's Dance Hall dude (No one apparently) lol, it's got to be one of the worst bootlegs ever.

But seriously I'm stuck here, I feel like I'm about the only person who cares about vinyl any more,

Ok Mr Coda
Now we do care about vinyl just like you and a lot of others here It is one of the purposes of this very forum which you have posted to
Ok I did read your email long and quite confusing to say the least I am not surprised that they did bin it and so they should
I have quoted a couple of paragraphs that would cause any pressing plant or any respectable cutter to do just that, BIN IT
Couple of poignant points
1,You are admitting you have no copyright to the material.
Now How did you get the right???? to Pirate the music regardless of how bad it was when you got it ????????????
2, Is the pressing plant whoever it is, be prepared to get into trouble with the authorities by colluding with you in counterfeiting, bootlegging, Pirating records??
Now it seems to me that because of your love of that particular genre of music you are prepared to break the law and it does seem that you are doing it already Now why do you expect others to do so?
There is such thing as "orphan" Recordings where by you apply to the licensing authority you get permission to reproduce the music You pay your royalties to the fund and if and when the rightfull owner of the material seeks payment he gets it
If after a period of time it is not claimed it goes into to common fund and it is distributed to other artist in some way that I do not quite know the details
Now I am sure that if you where to provide evidence that you do and have followed up the necessary procedures any pressing plant would be happy to accommodate you
I am not going to go into the ins and outs of cost's etc as it is a fruitless excersise at this point
But I can assure you no pressing plant or even a one off cutter would entertain you under this self justification email you have posted here regardless of your arguments
It is simply counterfeting if it is copied including matrix no's as well as other marks on the dead land area or bootlegging if you are to ignore original markings on the pressing
Than you just another pirate that pirate's other peoples music and does a damn good job (according to you) in restoring original sound
I do not quite see that this gives you any power of veto to other pirate's or bootleggers for that matter
All I got out of your email is this:
Look guys, there are a lot of people out there pirating Reggae music and doing a bad job
Now I will do it and do a great job, do it so good that It will be better than the original, I will have a few copies as I am a serious record collector and all that shit crap crap crap that we hear from all record collectors that are looking for the 10 cent one off cut like tha A. Warhol single that sold for a small fortune some time back
At the end of the day any one that does that is still a pirate mate and it is as simple as that
May be best you read the post's here on the subject as myself as well as emoritt have posted extensively on the subject
By the way FYI
The guy that got charged with bootlegging around Kensington way in the UK got 3 years jail
There a further 2 people, pressing plant owners, who have been charged recently with bootlegging/counterfeiting/pirating, they are facing court shortly
And you want a pressing plant or a dub cutter to do this for you, for any money, the love, the history, whatever
It is ILLEGAL and there are quite a few people out there who are having sleepless night waiting for the knock on the door
Now You cant be serious can you?
If this is a dressing down You are right
But there are some good tips in there for you as well man
And the last tip is this
Any one blatantly involved in some kind of copyright infringement would be well advised to refrain from posting their activities in a public forum such as this or any other forum for that matter,
As for other members here making suggestions of dubs one of cuts etc the same applies to them as well
Now I think I will rest my case
Is it obvious that I am dead set against any kind of pirating, bootlegging or counterfeiting Nahhhhh

[Coda]

Yes, it was a bit of a "Ranty" e-mail, I didn't expect to get anywhere really, but I'm not involved in Pirating, it already makes my life a nightmare and I don't want to give any weight to the bootlegers side of the argument either.

My question though is this, have you never recorded a tape of your favourite music? or burnt a CD of wavs for listening to in the car? When you Download an mp3 from amazon, how do you suppose they expect you to use that mp3, mightn't you want to transfer that file to CD or other I-phone type devices? There is surely such a thing as "fair use" when it comes to copying, (If) you have bought a Wav/mp3 a record or a CD then I believe you do have the right to back it up to any format you choose be that another ~CD, your hard drive or whatever, it's maybe not written in law but it is commonly accepted that this sort of thing is ok

Also, Dance music Wav downloads, for example those sold at "Drum and Bass Downloads" or Dogs on acid etc. That whole industry (as was Dub) was build off of the back of Acetate, it'd be a fair assumption to say these download sites are mainly there to facilitate people who want to cut "Dub Plates" as that is the main format these sites are promoting, do you see what I mean? it's the same with some Reggae sites as well. I mean if I'm going to Download a Wav From the "Dubplate download section" of a web site called "Dubplate Downloads" then I'm pretty certain I'm going to take that "Dubplate" and get it cut on acetate. Surly this is what is expected of me as a DJ, no?

I can see what you're saying about mass Pirating but I believe there is a small amount of copying allowed under the terms of reasonable use. I don't know if these laws are very clearly defined, but surely people are allowed to make their own copies of material they have purchased as long as it's for personal use no?

btw, I can take one on the chin for the sake of an argument but lets not get too personal, really I'm not a Pirate and there's no need to get edgy.

[mossboss]

Ok Mr Coda
It seems that you are fair enough about it all so by your comments about fair use and the ease of copying music mp3 wave files cd dvd ipod etc
after a while one supposes its OK
Let me say that to go to the extend of making a cut or a vinyl record would be beyond what one would call fair use
In a strict interpretation of the act one is offending the act by just selling a used record really
Any way it is quite a complex area of law and it is fair to say that bootlegging has been tolerated at least in the UK for many years
What has not being the case its the blatant cases of counterfeiting which has bought a few people undone
As one involved in pressing vinyl records I get a stream of request's similar in line to yours I will just wont do it full stop period
Further If the music is crap I will not do it just not on
There has been to much harm done to vinyl by bad recordings dud pressings bad quality clicks pops and surface noise which serves no one at all
So in a way we are on the same page apart from what you call "Fair use"
Now a pressing plant will not get rich by bootlegging as it is usually done for someone who is paying for it so there is no incentive for the plant to do it
Let me also say that most of the pressing plants in the UK have shut down ie Quick Press, Curved, Independent, Liquid Vinyl, the plant that got raided as well
There are rumors that another its on its way out as well
Same has happened in Germany with a few out and some on the way so the state of the industry is a bit shaky and why is that?
Because of the easy or quick buck attitude that most adopt when they get into it and let me say this most of these plants bootlegged records
Now why would a self respecting label ownwer approach any of these people so as to release new stuff when they know that these or that plant is involved in something that is the very essence of the industry No pirating
How does the label owner knows how many got pressed for him and how many got out through the back door?
That is one of the main reasons that no new releases or re eissues are not done in the UK there is simply no trust that the plant would honour its commitment
So If you are so strong about vinyl please remain so but try to see a broader picture Same goes for every one here
It is really up to all involved to uphold the rights of others regardless of any reasonable arguments to the contrary
By the way may be you want to get a couple of 7"'s that have been recently released from Music House in the last month or so Not to bad and the Vinyl is good
Nothing personal really I just get a bit as you said edgy about it
Cheers

[graph]

Coda:

..I don't own or want a record label or even an e-bay seller account and I can assure you the pressings would not be used for commercial profit making purposes or peddled as Bootlegs or Counterfeits etc, I am simply a Vinyl lover and I want to have my restoration works of these recordings cut back on to Vinyl at a (good) quality and at as cost effective a price as I can..

Coda:

..On the Pressing side of things, I'm tempted to actually do a run or two, maybe even start a label, for a couple of reasons (A) to get better quality Reggae/Dub Vinyl Back out on the market and (B) to take some business away from the Pirate's, not only the pirates but the second hand sellers who it seems only know how to ripp people off these days..

Please do correct me if I'm wrong but what you've wrote does sound quite contradictive of yourself there dude.

All the best!

[mossboss]

Hey Graph it 4.00 AM !! in the Uk
That's dedication for you I suppose
Cheers

[Coda]

Yeh, I just said I was tempted, that's just because I'm angry about getting ripped off by pirates, this has also occurred to me the more I've been looking in to it, My main interests (if I'm honest) are music restoration (which I'm fcking good at)! I recently developed a technique that allows the reverse engineering of mp3's back to wav quality which was previously and still is thought to be impossible. My second main interest is music production, Just about everybody in this field has considered at some stage production on a large scale simply for promoting their own music, but a record label is not something I really want to start, e-bay, well if it was a case of selling my own art or something then I guess I'd consider selling there but I'm really not in to merchandising.

mossboss I think you have every right to be edgy, I would be as well, I am as a consumer also, the last few records I bought cost me well in to the hundreds can you imagine how paranoid I am about them being pirates? Very.

The problem I'm facing (imo) is not one of copyright law, it's actually the (format) I'm after, as record pressing plants are the only people who can provide the specific type of discs I want to use to store my music on (tinted clear/coloured vinyl) and the dub plate cutting outfits cant offer me this service (or can they)?. and it's literally just that, Though the laws outlining this do seem to vary a lot in their level of detail with regards to the issue from one country to another but it appears that the common rule of them is that "Personal use" distribution is considered legal, so my making a personal compilation "One off" is not infringing copyright laws therefore is possible.

Your concerns on he other hand come from a different perspective and are also completely valid, (Obviously) you press the stuff I don't, you have to ask yourself "am I contributing to music piracy by pressing this?" I agree, so could you tell me under what circumstances would you feel happy to press this type of thing? what would essentially be a "one off" dub plate? For example if it was made clear perhaps using the etching on the inner groove that stated "DJ USE ONLY" or "Un authorised DJ Copy" "Not for resale" or similar? would that be of any help?

Secondly if its a personal compilation, it isn't a duplicate of any one record if I provided my own label/cover art that clearly stated this also would that help? Could a limit on the number of presses also be something that would put your mind at ease more? for example if you were only asked to provide literally one single disc and were to destroy the remainder of a small batch.

Please look at it from my point of view, some of these pieces of music have literally taken months of very pain staking restoration to bring them to a listenable quality, and years to source at great cost to myself, they are "out off print" and certainly not available to me or anyone else in vinyl format, this being the case how can a compilation one off record be classed as pirate if there is no "original" record for it to have been pirated from?

I Just want the best possible format to store and showcase my work, unfortunately that's not going to be a CD, or an mp3 player or even a dubplate, imo it can only be a Vinyl one off. and isn't that understandable when you see how beautiful some of these kinds of pressings can look? How about blanks? If I had a small run of coloured blanks pressed up by a pressing plant, couldn't I then take those blanks to a dubplate cutter? Could they actually cut them? Could that be a possible solution?

[MEGAMIKE]

http://www.copyright.org.au/publications/infosheets.htm

these are laws in my country ,i dont know were your from?
scroll down under m for Music: copying MP3s, CDs, & audio-cassettes

but be keep in mind that you have to have headphones on when playing that music outside of your home..

[Coda]

And it's illegal to play music at party's lol

I suspect the UK law is pretty much the same, I know there was a fairly recent revision but I haven't looked it up yet, but from what I read of your link, in Australia it's ok to copy your CD,Vinyl,Mp3 etc, but no one else is allowed to do for you? Really I can't see a single person being prosecuted under that ridiculousness, I mean what if you're disabled and physically cant press the record/copy button yourself properly for example?

[mossboss]

Ok Mr Coda
Look assuming that you have the means that is $$ here is the best advise I can give you in so far as keeping these gems for posterity
1.Cut them on copper in other words DMM
They will outlive even your great grand children and they will play magnificently
If you wish I can introduce you to a cutter with a dmm lathe who would quite happily do it for you assuming you take the steps already ponted out and repeated in the next paragraph
2. Your other choice is vinyl of course But before I would be involved You would have to provide me with evidence that this is an "orphan" I have pointed out to you before you have to have documents from BPI or the MCS in the UK that this is OK Not hard to do really
Than you can have as many copies as you wish Not an issue
I do admire your passion about it I must admit I do not make the laws unfortunatelly it is what it is
I think you have made enough points here to convince any reader that you are not pirating which is fine as it seems that you are bessoted by this as well as the fact that you would be rather upset if you bought a counterfeit
Be that as it may I am the worst person to be convinced of the merits of doing such thing without all the ducks lined up something you can do quite easily. So having said all that It is up to you to now go to the next step cover yourself and anyone that may want to do this for you with you whatever
By the way do not discount the dmm as it will fall in that dark area of personal use and it will be a one off so you may get away with it I have to check it out
The other point of compilations or reedits
This is another confusing area However It is not the pressing plants concern it is the guy that recompile that may be in breach
The plant is not colluding with any one in this case It is not expected to know every bit of music ever recorded It is not like pressing M Jackson last LP
Any way there are legal precedents that up to 20 secs about a bar can be done without really any issues
No I do not have any issues with compilations as we had legal advise on this At worst the artist is answerable not the plant
We do still require a copyright release from the customer If he is happy to provide us with it there is no issue whatsoever
By the way the same may apply for your obscure recordings but it is best that you follow the steps outlined above on this as you may be able to offer some for sale so as to recoup some of your outlay Pressing plant can use the work as well, Ha Ha
Even if they hear the music it will be hard to establish where it come from who is the artist etc etc etc
By the way
The scientologists have 2 DMM lathes so as to preserve the bare faced meshaiah's speaches for posterity They have the money resources etc so believe me it is the best way of preserving recorded sound and they spend a fortune finding out the best way
Also there is a dmm cut copper plate on some spaceship travelling now for a number of years out to the edge of the universe with stuff an
about us earthlings just in case there is intelligence out there and they find it than they may know something about us
NASA also believes that that is the best way to preserve sound
Cheers

[Coda]

Oh, so your connected? Very cool

Seriously I don't think I could get a licence from mcps, I'm pretty sure you have to have had sales of over a thousand as either an artist or a label before they will even register you. I don't know if this applies to orphan licenses or not, but surely a one off copy couldn't be used to generate any profits for the artists anyway?

I think a ddm might be cool actually, but isn't it (in essence) no different to a dubplate just using copper in place of acetate and also a one off? surely I can call "Fair use" at that stage, I mean, Cant ddm's/acetates etc be used by companies for assessment purposes before copyright needs to be sought? (I know I'm cringing as I say it) But surely some cutting plant or other has cottered on to them being usable as DJ dubplate lol

No, this is crazy they must cost thousands, I mean they're cut at places like Abbey road for heavens sake, it's all very well you flashing your contacts around the place but what'll it cost man? do you think I'm insane? But seriously if you can pull some strings and get a ddm cut for me I'd be chuffed to bit's, I think price is more likely going to be the deciding factor sadly :/

[mossboss]

Oh, so your connected? Very cool

No, this is crazy they must cost thousands, I mean they're cut at places like Abbey road for heavens sake, it's all very well you flashing your contacts around the place but what'll it cost man? do you think I'm insane? But seriously if you can pull some strings and get a ddm cut for me I'd be chuffed to bit's, I think price is more likely going to be the deciding factor sadly :/

OK Mr Coda
It seems that you are all good now with all that Now You can get on to the search button here find the cutting guys and go for it
I took your comment/advise "pulled the the strings" lo and behold got a flash now we are "dissconnected"
Cheers

[subkontrabob]

Mossboss is right. Making copies of music that you have purchased is only legal if you do it yourself, also here in Germany, and I don't suspect it's any different in England. I wasn't aware about this. So technically, if you buy your own Neumann Lathe and cut the stuff yourself you'll be fine.

But wait, is there any "copying fee" paid from the price of lacquer blanks and cutting lathes? (like from blank CDs and CD burners)


http://www.gema.de/fileadmin/inhaltsdateien/musiknutzer/herstellen/gema_information_selbstbrenner.pdf

[subkontrabob]

And by the way, Jamaican Music and copyright is a messy affair, basically because until 1997 Jamaica had obsolete British copyright laws in place that were supposed to guarantee royalties to foreign (= mostly British) artists and composers, but totally ignored the local music. Add to this the ignorance and exploitant business attitude of studio owners and producers, and musicians that didn't know their rights, and you get a BIG mess.

Look for instance how Rita Marley and Bunny Wailer are still arguing......

btw Coda, have you come across this already:

http://www.hermosarecords.com/marley/dannys.html

[subkontrabob]

I would like to get pressed for my own private collection and occasional use DJ'ing at party's etc,

That's clearly illegal btw.....

[Coda]

Oh cool, thanks for the link, yes I'll keep an eye out for it, I like a lot of Marley's early works but I'm no expert, though there does seem to be this kind of gap between his Ska period and later Roots Reggae, maybe this stuff is that missing material, maybe he even did some Rocksteady that'd be nice.

[Aussie0zborn]

Counterfeit Record:

A record that is made to look like an original issue with the intention of swindling the buyer.

Pirate Record:

A record (usually a compliation) containing original sound recordings that is made without permission and has no intention of deceiving the buyer into thinking it is an original.

Bootleg Record:

A record produced from usually original live recordings, studio outtakes, broadcasts, etc without any attempt to swindle the buyer and usually designed for the collector.