If a mistake is made and goes unnoticed until the test pressing, who pays for the re-plating and the test after a new lacquer is cut? (assuming it's the cutting engineer's fault) How do you handle situations where a customer is unhappy, you're to blame, and you must start all over again?
As an example, I've received a handful of records over the years where the run out groove has an obnoxious scraping sound at the end. It happens the moment the two grooves meet and form a loop. If someone complained and wanted a new cut, who would eat that cost? What is fair? Are contracts and waivers standard?
mistakes and liability
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Aussie0zborn
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Re: mistakes and liability
The good thing about "standards" is that there are so many to choose from.
To keep those pesky customers off your back when you stuff up, one of your Terms And Conditions could be "the customer will pay for the cost of a re-cut, plating and new pressings even if we make a mistake". That way you're covered. The downside is that you will not get many customers.
I believe that if you make a mistake you should "make good" and compensate the customer as much as you can afford to and as much as it takes to keep the customer happy. And you need to do it immediately and not wait until tempers flare as you will never redeem your reputation.
You also need to look at why you get occasionally get a scraping sound when the run-out groove meets the locked groove. This is not acceptable and clearly not the customer's fault but yours alone.
To keep those pesky customers off your back when you stuff up, one of your Terms And Conditions could be "the customer will pay for the cost of a re-cut, plating and new pressings even if we make a mistake". That way you're covered. The downside is that you will not get many customers.
I believe that if you make a mistake you should "make good" and compensate the customer as much as you can afford to and as much as it takes to keep the customer happy. And you need to do it immediately and not wait until tempers flare as you will never redeem your reputation.
You also need to look at why you get occasionally get a scraping sound when the run-out groove meets the locked groove. This is not acceptable and clearly not the customer's fault but yours alone.
Re: mistakes and liability
Not an UN-usual situation at all my friend Finger pointing everywhere
Point:
In the run out groove people are complaining? I would tell them to wear it There is no reason in my view that the run out groove should have any standard applied to it It serves no other purpose than what it is called run out lock groove etc
Ok we don't want any thing on it but sometimes it is a bit noisy or not sounding clean
Its no big deal really as it serves no purpose despite people looking for a quite ending
Now lets be realistic about a cutters place in the scheme of things
He is certain of his input chain as well as what the cut looked like, does he know how it sounds?
Absolutely not until test pressing time
So here is a situation where if there is an issue apart from silly things like run out or even run in grooves he the cutter has to wear it all the way
Many a time the pressing guys are called to account but playing back the positive its a tell all story
If it is a single step job (pulling according to Serif) than there is the lacquer of course that is if it is still intact
Some times it is fine
It tells a story as well, but not as good as a positive of course, as some of the lacquer may have been stripped of while removing the first negative plate
In most cases it settles the issue as the offending section may still be intact
It is fair to say that informing a client that a single metal plate from the lacquer the cutter takes no responsibility as there may be nothing there so as to establish where the fault lays than let him be the decision maker
We always take a positive out from the first negative so as to have a back up in case the stamper gets damaged as well as having insurance in a case were the client complains about the job
Even if they only pay for a single step we always make a positive it is far cheaper in the long run, we just do it just in case or we may be up for the cost of another cut metal work test pressings all the way down the line
Not nice if you have done the right thing all along but have no way of proving your case
So assuming it is not a pressing issue which is easily established than it is case of narrowing the issue to either metal work or the cut on the lacquer
If the metal work is a perfect reproduction of the lacquer the case than becomes simple!
Another cut,
Arghhhh this than hurts as the cutter carries the can all the way down the line
So if the above makes sense insist on two step metal work than if you have no case to answer it becomes simple If there is a case than obviously you have the responsibility to your client to see it through
Cheers
Point:
In the run out groove people are complaining? I would tell them to wear it There is no reason in my view that the run out groove should have any standard applied to it It serves no other purpose than what it is called run out lock groove etc
Ok we don't want any thing on it but sometimes it is a bit noisy or not sounding clean
Its no big deal really as it serves no purpose despite people looking for a quite ending
Now lets be realistic about a cutters place in the scheme of things
He is certain of his input chain as well as what the cut looked like, does he know how it sounds?
Absolutely not until test pressing time
So here is a situation where if there is an issue apart from silly things like run out or even run in grooves he the cutter has to wear it all the way
Many a time the pressing guys are called to account but playing back the positive its a tell all story
If it is a single step job (pulling according to Serif) than there is the lacquer of course that is if it is still intact
Some times it is fine
It tells a story as well, but not as good as a positive of course, as some of the lacquer may have been stripped of while removing the first negative plate
In most cases it settles the issue as the offending section may still be intact
It is fair to say that informing a client that a single metal plate from the lacquer the cutter takes no responsibility as there may be nothing there so as to establish where the fault lays than let him be the decision maker
We always take a positive out from the first negative so as to have a back up in case the stamper gets damaged as well as having insurance in a case were the client complains about the job
Even if they only pay for a single step we always make a positive it is far cheaper in the long run, we just do it just in case or we may be up for the cost of another cut metal work test pressings all the way down the line
Not nice if you have done the right thing all along but have no way of proving your case
So assuming it is not a pressing issue which is easily established than it is case of narrowing the issue to either metal work or the cut on the lacquer
If the metal work is a perfect reproduction of the lacquer the case than becomes simple!
Another cut,
Arghhhh this than hurts as the cutter carries the can all the way down the line
So if the above makes sense insist on two step metal work than if you have no case to answer it becomes simple If there is a case than obviously you have the responsibility to your client to see it through
Cheers
"The Vinyl Truth"
Chris
Chris
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stereophonic
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Re: mistakes and liability
Thanks guys. This is helpful. Owning your mistakes and asking for two step metal is good advice.
It does however sound like a client could push the run-out groove issue, and insist on having a new cut in addition to new plates at the cutters expense - technically it's their fault. That seems like a difficult position to be in over something so trivial. And to clarify this is a hypothetical situation. I did not cut these records with noisy run-out grooves. It's something I would have never even noticed if I had an auto-return turntable.
off topic: What would cause noise like this? The head not lifting at the right moment?
It does however sound like a client could push the run-out groove issue, and insist on having a new cut in addition to new plates at the cutters expense - technically it's their fault. That seems like a difficult position to be in over something so trivial. And to clarify this is a hypothetical situation. I did not cut these records with noisy run-out grooves. It's something I would have never even noticed if I had an auto-return turntable.
off topic: What would cause noise like this? The head not lifting at the right moment?
Re: mistakes and liability
I believe as a cutter, one of the best things you can do, is push the importance of getting a reference lacquer, (aka dub plate) prior to cutting the master. (This is a lacquer disc that is cut on the lathe then sent for the client approval.) This disc represents the overall sound and how it tracks on THE CLIENTS turntable as well as other aspects such as where the spreads are placed and how a lock groove functions. All of these parameters are documented and are recreated for the master. In the case of the noisy lock groove, you would have the reference disc to compare against the pressing. What would this tell you? If you have noise on one and not on the other, It would tell you that the engineer is capable or not of cutting a quiet lock groove. That's just one example. ...It could also save time and money on things like finger pointing and additional vinyl production costs etc. Yes there will be a certain amount of "unknown parameters" after cutting the final master (as it's only visually inspected and not played) but you can eliminate many potential problems by emphasizing the importance of reference discs.
JJG
JJG
Re: mistakes and liability
I'm a little puzzled by this "scaping" sound you describe. Doesn't every record have a noticeable noise at the run-out groove loop? It's such a well known record artifact, DJ's have recorded the sound into their dance mixes for years.
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concretecowboy71
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Re: mistakes and liability
I have many classic albums that have a noise in the final locked groove, some sound like a squeak, some sound like static. I always thought it was just part of the process.
After 3 years and several thousand side, I have never had anyone reject a test press because of this. We have heard a lot of reasons and I own up to my mistakes, but I am not sure this would be grounds for a paid in full recut.
Perhaps offering a discount on a new cut would help, but you cannot garantee that the noise will not be in the new cut either.
After 3 years and several thousand side, I have never had anyone reject a test press because of this. We have heard a lot of reasons and I own up to my mistakes, but I am not sure this would be grounds for a paid in full recut.
Perhaps offering a discount on a new cut would help, but you cannot garantee that the noise will not be in the new cut either.
Cutting Masters in Bristol,Virginia, USA
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records
Re: mistakes and liability
Agreed, random and normal. The noise occurs when the groove cuts over and into itself for the lock-groove before the head lifts.
This can vari depending on the depth of cut and especially if there is audio modulation in the lock-off.
JJG
This can vari depending on the depth of cut and especially if there is audio modulation in the lock-off.
JJG
Re: mistakes and liability
Well Lets be realistic
There are quite a number of lock groove records out there which do not have any extra/unwanted noise like squeaks scraping hiss or anything else apart from what was submitted for the cut
I think our record sits on about 180 locked grooves on a 12" accepted by the client
This was about the 5th job for this guy The first two needed a re-cut you get better after a few hundred, Ha
Quite often we are requested to cut on the lock groove and we do
But this is not the case with a normal cut it is not really a requirement so we don't bother
Yes one can cut a quite lock out groove a noisy one big deal, that does not give raise to a claim regardless of how noisy it is
Cheers
There are quite a number of lock groove records out there which do not have any extra/unwanted noise like squeaks scraping hiss or anything else apart from what was submitted for the cut
I think our record sits on about 180 locked grooves on a 12" accepted by the client
This was about the 5th job for this guy The first two needed a re-cut you get better after a few hundred, Ha
Quite often we are requested to cut on the lock groove and we do
But this is not the case with a normal cut it is not really a requirement so we don't bother
Yes one can cut a quite lock out groove a noisy one big deal, that does not give raise to a claim regardless of how noisy it is
Cheers
"The Vinyl Truth"
Chris
Chris
Re: mistakes and liability
Out of curiosity - when someone is intentionally making a locked groove with audio (for DJ work I assume), is there a lead in to that locked groove, or do you just drop in, then remove the cutting stylus without any advance?
Re: mistakes and liability
You can do it both ways you described. But if you have a lock groove at say 75% of the disc, you need to scroll in and make
1 concentric locked groove at the standard head lift diameter.
This groove is used in centering the stamper.
JJG
1 concentric locked groove at the standard head lift diameter.
This groove is used in centering the stamper.
JJG
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Dub Studio
- Posts: 263
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Re: mistakes and liability
I have a three step QC procedure, 1) I always send a digital bounce for approval, 2) then I cut a reference dub, 3) then I cut the lacquers. I insist on TPs being checked, and I don't take responsibility beyond that stage. I also save the session settings, so if there is a problem, a recut is relatively painless. Responsibility for metalwork is mine if I mess up, I wouldn't feel right asking someone to pay for something that was clearly my fault.
In ten years, I have never had anyone complain about run out groove noise. I am not sure I would really want to work for someone with such a complaint, so I would probably issue them a refund, and move on.
In ten years, I have never had anyone complain about run out groove noise. I am not sure I would really want to work for someone with such a complaint, so I would probably issue them a refund, and move on.
Re: mistakes and liability
I actually run out the last track in my DJ mixes to the locked groove where the sound is so that people know it was a fully vinyl mix and not some digital hack job.audadvnc wrote:I'm a little puzzled by this "scaping" sound you describe. Doesn't every record have a noticeable noise at the run-out groove loop? It's such a well known record artifact, DJ's have recorded the sound into their dance mixes for years.
I need a full cutting solution. But would consider parts 
Re: mistakes and liability
Well there is noise and then there is noise. What i mean is that a completely silent unmodulated groove will have some minor background noise once those grooves are eletrocormed and pressed into vinyl. It is absolutely unavoidable. But, we all know what that sort of natural static sounds like. The problem is that there are plenty of cuts with other noises in the unmodulated grooves.
I've heard:
1. Echo from the first beat of a loud dance cut in the neighboring lead-in groove due to the cutting engineer not widening the first few grooves.
2. A scraping sound that is louder and more regular than the normal bg noise. Something is likely not right with the head suspension likely.
3. The cutting engineer talking. Literally, I have records wherein you can hear something that sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher chatting with someone. Very unprofessional.
4. A whining or high pitched squeel that is always present. Possibly due to the suction hose being misalligned. Or cutting with a bad styus.
5. A whining that comes and goes periodically that is cuase by the overhead mechanism being employed. You hear a squeak. Then nothing. Then squeek. Then nothing. It is whatever is engaging on the leadscrew. Or just the turning of the leadsceldew itself.
These could all be avoided by taking great pride of ownership when cutting. And, therefor, by taking great care of your lathe. Maintenance and rutine spot checks are critical.
I'm proud to say that the cuts I do are as silent as possible in the lead-/lead-out grooves. This is not only one less complaint I need suffer. But, more importantly, i know my cuts are free of noise all the way through. That way I'm not cutting unwanted noise into someone's musical expression. If there is noise int the lead-in/lead-out the there is noise during the music. AND, if there is a quiet enough break in a track, you'll hear that noise! Therein lies the beart of the issue. It is a valid complaint in my opinion.
I've heard:
1. Echo from the first beat of a loud dance cut in the neighboring lead-in groove due to the cutting engineer not widening the first few grooves.
2. A scraping sound that is louder and more regular than the normal bg noise. Something is likely not right with the head suspension likely.
3. The cutting engineer talking. Literally, I have records wherein you can hear something that sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher chatting with someone. Very unprofessional.
4. A whining or high pitched squeel that is always present. Possibly due to the suction hose being misalligned. Or cutting with a bad styus.
5. A whining that comes and goes periodically that is cuase by the overhead mechanism being employed. You hear a squeak. Then nothing. Then squeek. Then nothing. It is whatever is engaging on the leadscrew. Or just the turning of the leadsceldew itself.
These could all be avoided by taking great pride of ownership when cutting. And, therefor, by taking great care of your lathe. Maintenance and rutine spot checks are critical.
I'm proud to say that the cuts I do are as silent as possible in the lead-/lead-out grooves. This is not only one less complaint I need suffer. But, more importantly, i know my cuts are free of noise all the way through. That way I'm not cutting unwanted noise into someone's musical expression. If there is noise int the lead-in/lead-out the there is noise during the music. AND, if there is a quiet enough break in a track, you'll hear that noise! Therein lies the beart of the issue. It is a valid complaint in my opinion.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
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Dub Studio
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
- Location: Bristol
- Contact:
Re: mistakes and liability
OK so its a valid complaint, its just not one I have ever had. Even taking great pride in our work, and with all the best intentions, sometimes a little noise will creep into the lead out, and once a lacquer is cut there is no way of testing this until the TPs arrive. I am not saying I don't care about it, I would just weigh up the pros and cons of recut versus refund, and in this hypothetical instance it would be refund. Of course if there was a really compelling reason to recut, then so be it, but on hypothetical grounds alone, I would cut my losses in this case.opcode66 wrote:Well there is noise and then there is noise. What i mean is that a completely silent unmodulated groove will have some minor background noise once those grooves are eletrocormed and pressed into vinyl. It is absolutely unavoidable. But, we all know what that sort of natural static sounds like. The problem is that there are plenty of cuts with other noises in the unmodulated grooves.
I've heard:
1. Echo from the first beat of a loud dance cut in the neighboring lead-in groove due to the cutting engineer not widening the first few grooves.
2. A scraping sound that is louder and more regular than the normal bg noise. Something is likely not right with the head suspension likely.
3. The cutting engineer talking. Literally, I have records wherein you can hear something that sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher chatting with someone. Very unprofessional.
4. A whining or high pitched squeel that is always present. Possibly due to the suction hose being misalligned. Or cutting with a bad styus.
5. A whining that comes and goes periodically that is cuase by the overhead mechanism being employed. You hear a squeak. Then nothing. Then squeek. Then nothing. It is whatever is engaging on the leadscrew. Or just the turning of the leadsceldew itself.
These could all be avoided by taking great pride of ownership when cutting. And, therefor, by taking great care of your lathe. Maintenance and rutine spot checks are critical.
I'm proud to say that the cuts I do are as silent as possible in the lead-/lead-out grooves. This is not only one less complaint I need suffer. But, more importantly, i know my cuts are free of noise all the way through. That way I'm not cutting unwanted noise into someone's musical expression. If there is noise int the lead-in/lead-out the there is noise during the music. AND, if there is a quiet enough break in a track, you'll hear that noise! Therein lies the beart of the issue. It is a valid complaint in my opinion.
If it ever happens to me... I will send the client your way
Re: mistakes and liability
The hard reality is that at best we can only have an educated and well deserved or earned guess rather than know! that what we have cut is fine perfect etc
It is fair to say it is an assumption not a fact
Sure we know our machine we know the input we listen to the feedback we do the right thing as we have to, normal stuff like feed in run out observe the LPI meter etc etc etc
But do we know what we have cut?
No way as we never play it back, so in a way we have assurance but no certainty
All comment here are valid within certain provisos
Just my penny's worth
Cheers
It is fair to say it is an assumption not a fact
Sure we know our machine we know the input we listen to the feedback we do the right thing as we have to, normal stuff like feed in run out observe the LPI meter etc etc etc
But do we know what we have cut?
No way as we never play it back, so in a way we have assurance but no certainty
All comment here are valid within certain provisos
Just my penny's worth
Cheers
"The Vinyl Truth"
Chris
Chris
Re: mistakes and liability
Hey Chris,mossboss wrote:The hard reality is that at best we can only have an educated and well deserved or earned guess rather than know! that what we have cut is fine perfect etc
It is fair to say it is an assumption not a fact
Sure we know our machine we know the input we listen to the feedback we do the right thing as we have to, normal stuff like feed in run out observe the LPI meter etc etc etc
But do we know what we have cut?
No way as we never play it back, so in a way we have assurance but no certainty
All comment here are valid within certain provisos
Just my penny's worth
Cheers
what about a try to convince Mr. Chiba from ELP company to modify his laser turntable technology and create a new bigger unit with ability to read lacquer foils? Maybe if more people were interested...
http://www.elpj.com/
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic
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Greg Reierson
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Re: mistakes and liability
Exactly what I was thinking. Of course there is no way of knowing what is on a Master Lacquer. Duh. That goes without saying. But, if you have cut enough test. Let me repeat that. If you have cut enough test (which I don't think a lot of pro cutters actually do). Then you can be relatively certain about the noise floor on unmodulated grooves. If you gear is in fine shape and tested, then it should perform as it does under test scenarios with great reliability. To say it is a complete guess, well, sure you can say that, if you don't know your machine inside and out...GeorgeZ wrote: what about a try to convince Mr. Chiba from ELP company to modify his laser turntable technology and create a new bigger unit with ability to read lacquer foils? Maybe if more people were interested...
You send me any client you like. I'll take care of them. They'll come back to me.Dub Studio wrote:If it ever happens to me... I will send the client your way
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
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Greg Reierson
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- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:31 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Re: mistakes and liability
This brings up something I've been curious about. When cutting a locked groove, my system is calibrated to lift the stylus after 1 1/4 revolutions. But when cutting audio in the locked groove, that extra 1/4 revolution garbles the previously cut groove. Do you guys intentionally reduce the delay to make it as close to 1.01 revolutions as possible?