Considerations when switching stylii types

[jesusfwrl]

Another new-guy question:

Some of you guys cut laquers with sapphire stylii, some cut plastics with diamond stylii, and some emboss/impress on soft plastics using steel stylii.

Some of you do some or all of the aforementioned by switching out stylii on the same machine. Is it as simple as it sounds? Off with the sapphire, on with the diamond, and off we go? Or are there more important considerations? What else needs to be changed/adjusted for it to work? Cutterhead pressure, presumably? Heating maybe?

Are all cutterheads able to use all stylus materials, if the physical dimensions are compatible?

The vinilium machine came with sapphire, but there was also a diamond option. Could it also take a steel stylus for embossing/impressing, provided that it fits in the head?

How important is the material of the stylus for the cutterhead? Are there any obstacles? What is safe to try and what is not? How seamless is the switch from one to the other? Those of you who cut both laquer and vinyl, do you have separate lathes for each, or do you just set up your lathe differently depending on which material you are cutting next?

[opcode66]

It would be far more convenient if I haf two lathes. Someday. I cut both lacquer and plastic. I only cut into lexan/polycarbonate/makrolon discs when cutting plastic. As yet no one has really confirmed consistent results with pressed plastic blanks. I think this is mostly due to the fact that diamond cuttig styli are expensive. So, cutting into an unproven material with one is a risky gamble at best.

I change out my stylus. I've become quite efficient at doing this. It is not quite that easy though. You really cant rush changing out. The more times you do it the more you risk accidental damge to your styli.

You do need to do other things once changed out. The height of each kind of stylus is generally different, so you need to account cor that by adjusting the height of the cutterhead from the disc. Generally this is done on the suspension. The you need to adjust your cutting angle. Adjust heat. Do test cuts and watch under the scope. Once your grooves are looking good and are the proper width, you are good to go.

Notes: When setting up for plastic I set my vaccuum to run high. I set it lower for lacquer. You have to setup a lamp for heating plastic blanks. I also use a negative ion generator and a wee bit o turtle wax spray to kill static on the surface of the discs.

[jesusfwrl]

Aha... But I guess once set up properly it's all the same for the cutterhead (in terms of how hard it has to be worked)?

Is there a drastically different angle and weight needed for the different stylus materials? Are the shanks the same diameter generally (for mounting on the head)?

If a cutterhead was designed for cutting on laquer with sapphire, would cutting on plastic (harder material) with a diamond (also harder than sapphire) put more stress on it? Or does it not make that much difference?

What about steel styli? Impressing/Embossing as far as I understand needs more weight on the cutterhead and a more extreme angle. Is that really doable with all cutterheads?

Steel stylii seem to be MUCH cheaper than diamond or sapphire ones. But as I understand it, they are only good for embossing/impressing but not for cutting? So they do work, but with a much inferior quality?

[opcode66]

Yes there is a difference in angle when cutting plastic vs. lacquer.

Cutterhead doesn't care what it is cutting into.

More weight and severe angle are required for embossing. You would only emboss if you can't actually cut. There is way more background noise in an impressed grooves there a cut one.

Yes. Correct. They work. But its the fidelity of the recording that is lesser with embossing regardless of the styli used.

[jesusfwrl]

I am wondering about how embossing works so I can be able to offer a cheaper alternative to lo-fi bands who are not that interested in high fidelity. I am probably more than well-equipped enough to sharpen and re-sharpen my own steel stylii, but I can't do the same with diamonds or sapphire.

For my own use I would prefer the highest fidelity possible with what I can afford, and this is the first thing I would suggest to anyone asking. But as I also would need to somehow make some money... I probably need to know all my options!

It would be perfect for me to be able to experiment with all the different materials I can get my hands on (both blanks and stylii) and decide which ones I want to use on a regular basis.

So, the cutterhead would have no problem with the added weight required for embossing? Sounds good! I somehow don't think there's much point in using sapphire for embossing (unless you can use broken/worn sapphires for that?) because it's too expensive and I can't resharpen them myself. Plus, I can use them to cut instead, which would sound better at the same cost.

I mean, I secretly hope that people will be so into this that I will be able to afford a professional mastering system within a few years, but I also have to be realistic... I can see me doing limited releases on plastics using diamond stylii for my label but I have a feeling that most of the DIY bands that would be my target audience for the cutting service would choose cheaper over better. I hope I am proven wrong, as there is something really special about making the absolute best-sounding product I possibly can, without having to cut corners due to cost.

Same with my recording service really. I can record on analog tape and it sounds mindblowingly good. I play the tapes for bands, they know what it sounds like. But they choose to record digital or on cassette tape, instead of reel-to-reel recording tape, because it is cheaper. Oh well...


Where does embossing come from by the way? Were there ever machines on the market that could only emboss, and not cut?

[opcode66]

I think the recordio's emboss??? And, technically it is not embossing. That requries making a raised mark on one side by pressing on the other side of a material. What is being done is actually impressing.

You might want to ask a few people about their business before you go diving in with respect to numbers. You can calculate all you want, but it is purely hypothetical at this point. I did the same thing. My actual business model and numbers are far different than what I predicted at first. PIAPTK could probably give you some good insight.

Some people who use sapphire to impress usually also cut lacquer. So, they use old sapphires from lacquer cutting, reverse them and use them for impressing. You can also find old ones on eBay.

The cutterhead doesn't really care. Yes there is a point where you should no longer add any more weight. But, that is beyond what is required to impress or cut. My suspension is different. I don't add weight, so I'm not an expert on the topic. I have a VMS70.

Good luck. Just be realistic about your expectations.

[jesusfwrl]

Thanks for that Opcode. It is probably a good idea to ask people more directly about their business. So far, I am only calculating what it will cost me to get started and how much I could possibly sell the finished product for. There is really no way of knowing if I will ever get enough interest from the people I expect to get business from. At least what I know so far is that I am already selling vinyl that I am not currently making myself, and it would be much more profitable (if it keeps on going like this for a few years) to make it myself. Not to mention much more interesting than just being the salesman.

It's really nice to be getting so much useful information before I dive into this, so I'm more aware of what I am getting into.

[studiorp]

Sorry for my question, but the difference among embossing and cutting ?

[jesusfwrl]

Sorry for my question, but the difference among embossing and cutting ?

Impressing is a more accurate description than embossing, from an engineering perspective. The difference, as far as I understand it, is how the grooves are made on the vinyl, from a mechanical engineering point of view.

Cutting refers to the use of a cutting tool (diamond or sapphire stylii, specially shaped so as to have cutting edges), which cuts the groove into the plastic/laquer, removing the cut portion which then gets sucked away by the suction system.

Impressing does not use a cutting tool. It uses a friction tool (steel stylus or sapphire without the cutting edges), to scratch (instead of cut) grooves into the vinyl. The result is shallower grooves, and the process involves high friction, which translates to higher surface noise.

But, friction tools are simpler than cutting tools, in general. Therefore, cheaper.

To over-simplify, think of it as the difference between a grinding disk and a drill bit on a piece of steel. They both make a part of the steel disappear. But the way in which they do it is very different. A grinding disk is dirt cheap and primitive, while a drill bit is expensive and more precise.

[studiorp]

Yes, now I understood...
Naturally for cut a true groove you must have more torque for remove then the chip from an acetate.

[tragwag]

read this thread for embossing/impressing info: http://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3289&hilit=leaning+back&sid=951906e34aabe3a0ec723c378b102e6c

I would describe it more as 'pushing down' than 'scratching'.
Also I use the same stylus for cutting as I do for embossing, no physical difference.

for your purpose jesusfwrl, I would suggest cutting with a diamond stylus on a vinyl recorder.

If you go the Presto/Rek O Cut route, the best choice is to stick with the sapphire stylus and 'impress' though as Todd (opcode) said, it's definitely a lower fi option, and is VERY difficult to obtain consistent results.

If you want to talk 'impressing' on polycarbonate, I do it 5 days a week on two Presto 6Ns

[piaptk]

I would also not jump the gun on offering cutting services until you are absolutely 110% confident in what you are doing. You are putting the cart ahead of the horse by talking about different offerings, etc before you even have a lathe.

Several cutters (single piece slate, poly-cut and who knows how many other newbies) hit the ground running, ran into serious problems they didn't have the experience to expect or handle, and imploded jn a spectacular fashion ripping off dozens of bands and stealing thousands of dollars of their money because they couldn't fulfill the orders. Or they were churning out awful sounding cuts.

All of this gives lathe cuts a really bad reputation to record collectors and bands that us other guys who spent 5+ years learning how to use our machines before selling the service have to deal with turning around.

I know you are excited about this, we all were, but please don't start selling it before you have spent hundreds of hours making sure you know what you are doing. I see you already have it up on your site, which experience tells me you are about to jump the gun the minute you get a half ass system you don't know how to use.

It is the equivalent of saying "Hey! I'm going to be buying my first guitar soon, so everybody get ready to hire me to play jazz at your birthday, bar mitzvah, and corporate event!"

These 60 year old machines are not like operating a CD burner.

[jesusfwrl]

read this thread for embossing/impressing info: http://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3289&hilit=leaning+back&sid=951906e34aabe3a0ec723c378b102e6c

I would describe it more as 'pushing down' than 'scratching'.
Also I use the same stylus for cutting as I do for embossing, no physical difference.

for your purpose jesusfwrl, I would suggest cutting with a diamond stylus on a vinyl recorder.

If you go the Presto/Rek O Cut route, the best choice is to stick with the sapphire stylus and 'impress' though as Todd (opcode) said, it's definitely a lower fi option, and is VERY difficult to obtain consistent results.

If you want to talk 'impressing' on polycarbonate, I do it 5 days a week on two Presto 6Ns

Thanks for the link. Interesting to read. Yes, I realised after I wrote it (while driving somewhere and thinking about it) that "pushing down" or "pressing in" is a far more accurate description than "scratching".

The diamond stylus and vinyl recorder is my planned starting point so far. We'll see where it goes from there..

I like both ideas and worlds, impressing and cutting. Obviously I'll start with one, learn the art, and move on to experiment later. But I'm equally as fascinated reading about cutting as much as I am reading about impressing.

I would also not jump the gun on offering cutting services until you are absolutely 110% confident in what you are doing. You are putting the cart ahead of the horse by talking about different offerings, etc before you even have a lathe.

Several cutters (single piece slate, poly-cut and who knows how many other newbies) hit the ground running, ran into serious problems they didn't have the experience to expect or handle, and imploded jn a spectacular fashion ripping off dozens of bands and stealing thousands of dollars of their money because they couldn't fulfill the orders. Or they were churning out awful sounding cuts.

All of this gives lathe cuts a really bad reputation to record collectors and bands that us other guys who spent 5+ years learning how to use our machines before selling the service have to deal with turning around.

I know you are excited about this, we all were, but please don't start selling it before you have spent hundreds of hours making sure you know what you are doing. I see you already have it up on your site, which experience tells me you are about to jump the gun the minute you get a half ass system you don't know how to use.

It is the equivalent of saying "Hey! I'm going to be buying my first guitar soon, so everybody get ready to hire me to play jazz at your birthday, bar mitzvah, and corporate event!"

These 60 year old machines are not like operating a CD burner.

Yeah, don't worry too much about that. I'm not that naive. The reason it's on my site is because I am already offering this service, and have been for a while now. I just don't cut them myself yet. I work with another cutter who consistently gets good results, and I trust him enough to offer this service professionally to my studio clients.

But, I've been getting more and more into this lately and I want to start doing it myself. I have a lot of my own music I can practice cutting until I am satisfied with the results, before I even involve anyone else. If I get decent cuts of my music, I can then sell them. When I'm confident about getting decent cuts, I can cut other people's music. In the meantime, there's always the cutter who currently cuts all my stuff who will be just as happy to keep on cutting it. I'm in no particular hurry to cut everything myself. I'm going to be taking my time with this. Besides, my work has always been about offering quality. I'm keeping it this way. If I never get good cuts, I'll never sell any.

The reason I'm asking about all this stuff from now, is that I don't want to end up with the wrong kind of equipment for what I want to be offering. Since I don't really have any hands-on experience, there's still plenty of gaps in my knowledge about what works on what machine, etc. I have a vague idea of what I want to be doing, but I want to make sure I buy the right machine for it. It's not like I can afford to keep on buying lathes... So I just want to make sure I fully understand the basic principles and how I could get there, before I spend my hard-earned.

The reason I'm thinking of the business side of it is because I want to eventually offer it for business. It's a really bad idea to make a business decision (which involves buying expensive gear) without knowing enough details about it.

So it took you 5+ years to feel confident enough before you offered this as a service? This is also good to know. Another important fact to influence my business plan.

How about the others on here? How long was your initial phase until you developed some degree of confidence in your work? How big a part does equipment play in this phase? Is it easier to learn on a Presto/Rek-o-Cut, a vinylrecorder/vinillium, or a Neumann/Scully? Or entirely different beasts altogether, so even switching from one to the other requires a long learning process?

[piaptk]

It depends on what you want to do, and how much guidance you have locally. If you have someone nearby who knows what they are doing, you will get much further, much faster. I had no resources except this site, which, at the time wasn't as much help, because there were very few experimenters on here then. It was mostly lacquer cutters, which wasn't what I wanted to do. I spent forever cutting picnic plates, acrylic, laserdiscs, X-rays, PVC, etc... A ton of experimenting with awful results that got better over time.

Embossing vs lacquer mastering vs cutting poly with diamonds are very different...

[jesusfwrl]

I'm not sure how much actual guidance I can have locally really. There is this one cutter I'm working with, but he doesn't seem too keen on passing on his knowledge and experience as far as cutting goes. So I don't know how much he'd be willing to help. He seems a bit secretive. But, I guess this is supposed to be a secret society of lathe trolls......

Since I will most likely start with the vinylrecorder, I am looking forward to the training session with Souri. This will be my first actual close encounter with such a machine. As far as I've read, this machine is easier to learn how to use and more forgiving than a professional mastering system, and more plug-and-play than a Presto/Rek-o-Cut type system.

The cutter I'm working with also uses a vinylrecorder with very decent results, and he said it was very easy for him to learn how to use it without that much experience. I don't know how many years he's been doing it for, but he's not that old and he surely can't have been doing it for that long.

But anyway, it doesn't matter so much how long it takes. It's something I've been wanting to do since I was a teenager, and I've been seriously trying to save up for a decade now. If I have waited for 10 years to be able to afford it and I'm still into it, it's probably worth doing.

[mossboss]

Good advise so far piptk ought to know he is the backbone of lathe cuts which are decent by comparison to some other lathe cuts I have seen/heard
So take note
Cheers

[jesusfwrl]

Thank you everyone for all the advice. I really appreciate it!

[janomusica]

good afternoon. in these days I was cutting discs of different materials, like acetate, pvc and other plastics, but not with very good quality ... my question is: could someone record directly on a blank vinyl? (I know that there are records on one side that have a record and on the other side are blank) If so, it would be much cheaper to send 100 discs without registration to a recording company and bring them for freeshipping, but I do not know if someone tried record on the same vinyl record. Someone has done it.

[tragwag]

good afternoon. in these days I was cutting discs of different materials, like acetate, pvc and other plastics, but not with very good quality ... my question is: could someone record directly on a blank vinyl? (I know that there are records on one side that have a record and on the other side are blank) If so, it would be much cheaper to send 100 discs without registration to a recording company and bring them for freeshipping, but I do not know if someone tried record on the same vinyl record. Someone has done it.

use the search function here on the forum! a few people have tried cutting directly into pressed PVC blanks (proper pressed vinyl)
the general consensus is that it can only be cut with diamond styli, but the stylus life is severely shortened, generally not recommended and especially not to those just starting out.
cutting a softer plastic such as the blanks sold by Myshank, or PET, polycarbonate, etc with diamond stylus is much more sustainable