No sound on a soundscriber dictation machine

[Jccc]

Hi i just got a sound scriber machine and was really exited to start recording. So when i put the batteries in and put one of the blanks that it came with on the platter. I start talking through the mike for 40 seconds or so, i see its scribeing on the blank.
So when i take it out and put it on my turntable to hear it, i hear no sound just surface noise. So i try it again and again and still get the same thing.
Is there something im doing wrong??? i followed the instructions it came with,
and still nothing.
If anyone out there has one of these can you help me out??

Thanks for your time.

[OLDLEE]

Since as far as I know the Sound Scriber uses a crystal microphone, if everything else seems to be OK then I would suspect the mic. The Rochelle Salt crystal in these 50-year old machines decomposes over time and gives no output whatever. It's the same with old crystal earphones and crystal phono pickups. They can be repaired, though. I would test your machine by connecting (say) a crystal-pickup phono to the jack for the mic and see if you can feel the recording needle vibrating with that source; then try recording.

[Jccc]

Hi thanks for getting back to me! Where would i find a crystal-pickup phono??
i have a Technics SL1200MK2 running through a Vestax PMC05 Pro, I dont know if thats a crystal-pickup. Would i have that running straight into the Mic input?
Thank you again for answering, Im really new to this and im really excited on learning all about this stuff.

[Jccc]

Also i took apart the mic part that has the switch which turns on the platter and it looks like the person that had it before me used a soldering iron to try to fix the mic .

[OLDLEE]

If you don't have an old crystal phono, then really, any low-level signal (say, about 1/4 volts) would do...for example, the output of an amplifier turned so low that it's almost inaudible. Luckily, tube type circuits are very robust and there's not much danger of harming them this way, unlike transistor circuits. If you can get your finger onto the recording stylus, you should then be able to feel the audio vibrations if the electronics of your Sound Scriber are working. As for repairing your mic (if that's the problem), I am in Canada so can't be much help, but I know there are places in the USA that do this for old crystal phono cartridges. (I repair mine myself.) You could check around on antique radio web sites to find someone.
(And yes, excess heat from a soldering iron can destroy Rochelle Salt crystals, to the extent there was anything left after 50 years...)

[cartridge-repair]

Hi i just got a sound scriber machine and was really exited to start recording. So when i put the batteries in and put one of the blanks that it came with on the platter. I start talking through the mike for 40 seconds or so, i see its scribeing on the blank.
So when i take it out and put it on my turntable to hear it, i hear no sound just surface noise. So i try it again and again and still get the same thing.
Is there something im doing wrong??? i followed the instructions it came with,
and still nothing.
If anyone out there has one of these can you help me out??

Thanks for your time.

Send the mic into WEST-TECH at www.west-techservices.com

[tape]

I have exactly the same problem - no sound on recording, but the machine is embossing fine looking grooves - On playback on a mordern turntable I hear the recording extremely low, covered in surface hiss.

I attached an oscilloscope, and there are a lot of signal going into the microphone - no problem here.

I have the Soundscriber model 200 which is germanium transistor based.
The transistors are: 2N508 (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/231301.html)

I found and bought the modern eqalivent: transistor "AC152"
(http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/A/C/1/5/AC152.shtml)

The only problem I have now, is that I am afraid to put them in the machine - I dont know much about electronics, and are afraid to blow them up. The transistors should fit with "E B C" the tree legs, and I am not sure if the new ones are spposed to be put in the same manner....

any help will be highly appriciated....

[tape]

I replaced the the transistors, 99% sure in a correct manner - still no sound on recording.

Maybe the recording head is dead?
or I could be missing out the understanding of some very basic function on the Soundscriber.....

Next thing to try is clipping the wires to the recording head, and hook it directly up an amplifier...although I have no idea what impedance to use to avoid destroying the head.....

[tape]

OK, Im posting replies to myself here:-)
but hopefully others could benefit from my experiences....

Original problem: no sound on recording, only extremely low and warped sound. Words could not be understood.

I then replaced the old germanium transistors.

I then cut out a circle of PVC plastic and used that insted of the original green transparant media. Seems to eboss a much deeper groove.

Current condition: Now there is actual sound beeing recorded, and words can be understood + the surface noise is lower.

The only problem is very low signal - I have to gain my turntable a lot on playback.

I suspect that this problem can be solved by soldering an external input directly to the microphone wires - the only thing stopping me from doing that is that I am afraid to fry the machine/transistors.

Again - any tips on how to try this in a safe manner would be highly appriciated..

[cuttercollector]

You probably don't want to drive the input harder. Or at least you want to carefully sneak up on the gain making test recordings. It might be that the mic output is low. It might be that the cutter is not giving full output for a given signal level input. If they are both crystal elements (the mic and cutter) this is somewhat likely. Gib @ West-tech can probably rebuild or suggest compatible alternatives. Or, the amp might not have proper gain. Hard to know without knowing what it was. You already replaced transistors but some capacitors might be leaky (in the electrical sense) for example. Do you have any known good recorded discs from when the machine was fully functional? If so, playing those back might reveal whether anything is still wrong. If they seem loud and clear played back on the machine then perhaps the mic is mostly at fault. If they have low gain, perhaps the cutter (which is also the playback pickup?) and /or the amp have issues. The amp is probably a simple design and like many things in those days they just switch everything at the input and near the output. So the mic runs through the amp to the cutter to record, then the playback pickup (which is the same element I think) is fed to the amp and the output goes to a speaker or earphone for playback.
These principals would apply to a recordette too for example.

[tape]

thank you Cuttercollector for your input.

I bought the machine off ebay, so I don't have any prerecorded discs.
The machine has both a cutterarm and a playback arm.
It is this model, with a slightly other casing: http://www.geocities.com/amishfan/soundscriber.html

The reason I want to try to solder an external input directly to the cutterhead, is exactly to avoid fiddeling around the old electronics - as you mention, a lot of things could cause the low recording level.

Again the problem here is that I am afraid to do it, as I understand that a wrong impedance can fry the cuttinghead...

Im not interested in restoring the machne to it's original state, and use the microphone, rather transfer music and emboss it with the machine..

[tape]

The machine is now working with proper gain.

I simply clipped the two wires ( signal + ground) going directly to the cutterhead, thereby bypassing all the old electronics.
I first tried with output from my mixer gained up. That did not work, even at extreme high (clipped) level, the recording was very low in amplitude.

I then tried connecting to a 'dc amplifier' - now the level is high, but a bit distorted - I guess it
is a choice between low amplitude and a somewhat distorted recording.
The cutterhead is clearly audible, acting as a small loudspeaker.

By moving the case, I discovered that the machine actually have screw for adjusting cutterhead weight and angle - a hidden feature:-)

[diamone]

For whoever doesn't already know, the SoundScriber embosses a vertical groove. On a mono (lateral-only) playback, you wouldn't hear anything but surface noise in the lateral plane.

On a stereo playback, as you are effectively listening to a recording with the L-minus-R portion of a stereo recording without the L-plus-R or lateral element you'll hear a lower-amplitude diffuse and directionless sound.

Especially if you hold the disc up to the light and can see not only the embossing, but also the modulation as well.

It's the same as the old 1-A cutterheads with the cemented-in stylus that Muzak used with which to cut Muzak transcriptions, and Mattel among others used with which to record doll records. In the cheapest of doll-playback mechanisms the stylus was attached to the bottom of a styrene speaker, resting directly thereon for acoustic reproduction.

Therefore, the cutting of vertical discs decreased the number of parts one needed to achieve playback within the doll mechanism, thereby reducing the cost.

[tape]

Just to make sure I get it right:

You would not make stereorecording on a soundscriber with a mono cutting head....so could you be more precise in terms of describing the L-R relationship?

When sending a mono signal into the soundscriber, what do you get other than mono when playing back in stereo on a mordern turntable?

thanks

[cuttercollector]

We have been through this (I have explained, or tried to, many many times in various threads here).
The signal is vertically modulated in the groove. That means that the stylus vibrates up and down instead of back and forth which is the case for standard mono lateral recordings. Vertical modulation is also known as hill and dale and was used on both Edison cylinders and flat discs.
A soundscriber is of course mono. It encodes only one channel of information into the groove, which is modulated vertically as just stated.
A typical mono lateral pickup cartridge will reveal little or no sound from such a groove because it is sensitive only to side to side vibration not up and down.

This part SHOULD sound familiar to everyone here by now.
A stereo record has both vertical (up and down - hill and dale) and horizontal (back and forth - lateral) modulation. This is because the two channels are physically out of phase with each other in the groove.
When a stereo cutter cuts, or a stereo cartridge plays 2 identical channels of information (the definition of mono in this case) the result is a groove which is petty much identical to that which would be cut or played in a mono lateral system where the groove walls are the mirror image of one another and the stylus moves back and forth.
Now, as soon as you introduce ANY difference between the 2 channels of sound (i.e. - stereo information) these differences are reflected in a difference between the left and right groove wall. Since the stylus can no longer move only back and forth between the two symmetrical but opposite groove walls, it has no choice but to start moving up and down (vertical modulation) with the DIFFERENCE signal between the 2 channels.
Now, if you were to reverse the phase of one of the two signals but in every other way they were identical in level and content, your stereo system would cut and play ONLY vertical modulation because the 2 channels would be identical but opposite (no longer mirror image) thus causing the stylus to rise and fall vertically with the modulation as the groove gets wide and narrow and not move back and forth at all.
This is similar to what a vertical modulation system like the soundscriber cuts (or embosses in this case) so, when you play it back with a conventional mono turntable and cartridge you (should in theory) hear nothing. When you play it back in stereo with a normally wired system where everything is in phase, you will hear a perfectly out of phase signal from the left and right speakers. They are trying to cancel one another but that does not happen totally in air and you still hear the sound but it sounds like you hooked up one of the speakers backwards and played a mono record. You can instead, hook up one channel of the cartridge backwards, switching say, left hot and ground and then you will hear the vertical modulation more clearly and now in phase between your 2 speakers and switching the system mono by combining the channels inside the amp will not cancel but reinforce the sound of your vertically modulated groove.
Again, this works because a normal stereo system is designed and wired such that the up and down movement of the stylus represents the DIFFERENCE between the 2 (L/R) groove walls and ultimately with normal wiring this content is "out of phase" between the 2 speakers, whereas the lateral back and forth stylus movement represents the sum of the 2 channels and all that is identical between them delivering this as equal in phase information to both speakers. A mono record on a good system should thus sound as if it is being played through a "phantom" speaker exactly between the Left and Right speakers. In Dolby pro logic this mono information is in fact routed to a real mono center channel between the L/R pair.

[tape]

Thank you!
very informative explanation.

[tape]

after the lenghty and very good explanation, this is probably a stupid question, but would there be a 'magic trick' to get louder sound when cutting with the Soundscriber?

Up until now I have played monofiles, via a mono cable, into the Soundscriber when cutting (embossing). Would it make any difference to send in a in / out of phase Stereosignal?

thanks

[recordboy]

Tape - Hello

This is a wonderful thread, as I too am looking to do as you have...

I am guessing after so much time playing with this machine, you have mastered it, yes?

Could you give me some tips, please???

Thanx

[tape]

well, there is still a lot to learn.
Depending on what model you have, I would recommend you to use an external amplifier - simply attatch the wires directly to the head.
You should of course only use mono signals.
I recommend you to eq, first cut off everything above 8-9khz, then apply the RIIA curve (If I remember correctly there really is not anything above 8khz being embossed)
The the fidelity depends very much on the material you record - you need to experiment

[tape]

btw: if you use the large soundscriber model, wihout external amp, the frequency response is restricted to 200-4000hz
not a lot