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cd4cutter
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:01 pm

New member, old cutter

Post: # 3057Unread post cd4cutter
Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:31 pm

Hi all. I just discovered this board and began reading some of the posts. Hmmm, I'm seeing a fair amount of guesswork, misinformation, and just plain old wives' tales being passed on here. So I'll try to fill in the blanks from what I know from my disc mastering experience at RCA Records during the time that I was employed at the manufacturing plant in Indianapolis, Indiana from 1973 until I turned the lights out way after we pressed the last records at the end of 1987. We were the tail end of the long legacy of Victor Talking Machine Company and RCA Records.

Among my engineering projects, I cut all the custom RCA test records which we manufactured for a number of clients during my years there. RCA maintained a large catalog of test records which nobody these days seems to know about. too bad I didn't "liberate" copies of more of these when we shut the plant down. They'd be useful to me now. I was also the developer of the RCA Quadulator which was the disc mastering signal encoder required to cut the only discrete 4-channel disc analog record ever manufactured, the CD-4 process. The Quadulator was about one tenth the size of the massive three-relay-rack system developed by JVC who invented the system. Toward that end, I did a LOT of disc mastering at 1/2.7 speed and 1/2 speed, both in my Indy lab and in our New York studios which were the only two CD-4 mastering locations maintained by RCA. My equipment in Indy consisted of a Neumann am32b lathe with SX-68 and SX-74 cutter heads and Neumann SA-66 (if I remember right) amp set, an old Scully lathe that I can't remember the model number of :( and several older vintages of Westrex and Western Electric cutting heads and amps.

But the best setup was the Ortofon DSS-731 cutter and matching GO-741 200 watt cutting amps. The 731 cutter was specifically designed by Ortofon to cut CD-4 at half speed. It had the widest frequency response of any audio disc recorder ever designed and could easily cut up to 30kHz in real time. But that performance still wasn't good enough for real time cutting of CD-4 which required response up to 45kHz with minimal phase shift between the the two channels, so we used the 731 at half speed with wonderful results. The stylus and collet assembly was very small compared with the clunkier Neumann mounts which went a long way toward providing the wonderful high frequency performance, but changing the stylus was much more of a challenge. Anyway, there's much more to relate about that experience if anyone is interested in it.

For now, I'm curious if there are any more of us old codgers on this board who have professional cutting experience from back in the 70s and 80s. Anybody out there? Anyone with experience cutting DMM in copper?
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC

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cuttercollector
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Post: # 3059Unread post cuttercollector
Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:02 pm

Welcome.
Not an old cutter - just old !
Great to see someone here with a serious engineering technical background.
A lot of music influenced psuedo-science/art around.
You have an almost forgotten knowledge base to preserve and pass on.

Please remember that there are people on this forum from those discovering this in their teens experimenting with forgotten home cutters with no electronic knowledge trying to come up with a way of cutting indie band music as a form of art project (media and sound) to those like yourself who have the background.

Thanks in advance for all your future input.

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cuttercollector
Posts: 431
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Location: San Jose, CA

Post: # 3060Unread post cuttercollector
Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:05 pm

BTW, somebody needs to cut and press new state of the art standard test records.

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blacknwhite
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Location: US

Post: # 3063Unread post blacknwhite
Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:59 pm

Hello cd4cutter -

I would URGE you to PLEASE very seriously consider writing a book with your experiences in cutting. There AREN'T any books out there right now with your "era" of 70s-80s cutting, pretty much the "state of the art!" There was one single book from the early 80s and you just can't even find any copies anymore anywhere.

There's the Robert Morrison book "Disk Recording 1930-1960" which is very good, but as the title says, only up through about 1960:

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=768.html

I'll guarantee you if you put it on ebay with appropriate title it'd be a hot item. HOT!

Please consider - we'd all be first in line to buy it!

[EDIT: If you didn't want to deal with printing, you could always make it an "E-Book"...]

Thanks, - Bob

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Cutterwoller
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: London

Post: # 3096Unread post Cutterwoller
Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:00 pm

Hey CD4. Did the neumann lathe you used have a Lyrec motor? If so, how did you make it go half speed? Also, how did you change the RIAA characteristics.

I have a bit of experience in DMM. The VMS82 lathes were made for it. and the heads for designed by Teldec (all made by Neumann tho) and they made coppers aswell, but no longer. Portal space in England make the coppers now.

Write back, L

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 3102Unread post cd4cutter
Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:48 pm

Lewis, Yes, my Neumann lathe had the Lyrec direct drive motor. The switchable half speed option was provided by Neumann. It was kind of an odd arrangement, but I think I remember that it switched in and out a rectifier to change the number of power pulses per second delivered to the motor. Full wave rectification of 60Hz results in 120Hz power pulses. The motor evidently was designed to run its real time speeds on the 120Hz power, then when the rectifier was switched out, the 60Hz power ran the motor at half speed. So the lathe could cut 33-1/3 and 45rpm at real time and 16-2/3 and 22.5 rpm at half speed.

I'm an electrical engineer, so when I decided to use the lathe at half speed, I designed my own RIAA EQ compensation. When I was developing the RCA Quadulator for CD-4 cutting, I wanted to make it an easily switchable system for the convenience of cutting engineers. So I designed the half-speed equalization change as a set of CONVERTERS which would be used with the existing real time EQ still in-circuit. The cutters that I talked with didn't want to have to devote an entire lacquer channel (that's what we called the cutting rooms in our New York studios - lacquer channels or Lac-Chans) to a permanent half-speed setup. So the Quadulator is designed to be a switchable or patchable set of electronics that takes care of the half-speed EQ conversions along with providing the supersonic carrier and its FM modulation for CD-4 cutting. In so doing, it actually comprises TWO different types of EQ conversion: There are two channels of RIAA conversion for the recording of the CD-4 baseband signals (which is the conventional audio range) and four channels of NAB tape playback EQ conversion to compensate the 4-channel tape deck that must also run at half speed to furnish the source program for the cutting system.

If you want to read more about this, you can find it written up in a technical paper I wrote which was published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (JAES), in March of 1977, Volume 25, Issue 3 titled "The RCA Quadulator". The JAES is available online from the AES website (for a fee), or you might find it in a large library which has a good technical literature section. By the way, anybody who wants to know the nitty-gritty details of analog recording and playback technology should investigate the JAES. It has been published monthly since 1947 and contains all the latest technology and theory behind all the audio innovations dating from that time, often including film sound, as well as some broadcast audio technology, too. The online JAES archive is convenient because it supports searches of the entire archive by title, keywords, and authors.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC

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motorino
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Post: # 3132Unread post motorino
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:19 am

wellcome!
Marcos

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Steve E.
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Post: # 3134Unread post Steve E.
Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:31 pm

Welcome, cd4cutter! Sorry about any misinformation. If you have the time and the patience to contribute your expertise here, you will find a lot of VERY appreciative people! This site exists because such information is simply not easy for us to find, so we are having to reinvent the wheel.

Again, I hope you stick around!

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Dub Studio
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Post: # 3153Unread post Dub Studio
Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:35 am

Welcome! I for one would love to hear more about the RIAA and how the half-speed one is worked out :)

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kfbkfb
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Location: Midwest USA

Post: # 3442Unread post kfbkfb
Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:07 am

Regarding CD-4 and the RCA Quadulator:

Lou Dorren is designing a new 2008 CD-4 Demodulator:
http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9035

cd4cutter:
We are looking for an RCA Quadulator so we can make
CD-4 master discs, can you help us find one?

Kirk Bayne

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 3446Unread post cd4cutter
Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:03 pm

Hi Kirk, there were only a few CD-4 modulation systems installed worldwide. JVC made most of them. Theirs included the Mark I which was the so-called "one third speed" system which actually operated at 1/2.7 real time. There was one of these in the RCA Records studios in NYC and one or maybe two in Japan. These comprised FIVE relay racks full of gear. The next generation was the JVC Mark II half-speed system. There were several of these in NYC, Japan, maybe europe somewhere (Germany?), and I think the JVC Cutting Center in Los Angeles started with one of these. This was "merely" THREE racks full of stuff. Most people don't know this, but CBS Records had a Mark II system in their NYC studios. YES - the SQ people! And they knew how to use it, too - I remember processing some of their lacquers into test pressings on our CD-4 vinyl, and their cuts were excellent. The last JVC design was the Mark III which was the size and shape of a disc mastering console desk. I think the JVC Cutting Center had one of these, and there was probably one or two in Japan. I have no clue what has happened to any of these setups, but I suspect that JVC might know if any of them still exist.

The RCA Quadulator was designed by me at RCA Records Labs in Indianapolis to take up only about 18 inches of space in ONE rack, and it operated at half speed. (Nobody was ever able to make an audio cutterhead to operate up 45kHz, so real time CD-4 cutting was never accomplished.) RCA eventually had a total of eight of them (not all in production), two were hand made by me and six others were contracted out to Crown International to be built under my supervision for RCA Records. So far as I know, all of these Quadulators were scrapped except for the one that I have. Mine is complete except for the four channels of 3-band limiters which are required for proper operation. I don't think I want to let this historical artifact out of my possession, but I do have the complete set of blueprints, schematics, and alignment instructions for the Quadulator if someone wants to take on the considerable task of building one. I also have the "blue bible" (a thick, blue hardbacked binder) which is the complete set of blueprints, schematics and technical data for the JVC Mark II system. Yes, Virginia, we still used actual blueprints when these devices were designed.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC

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kfbkfb
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Post: # 3451Unread post kfbkfb
Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:06 am

cd4cutter - Thanks for information about the RCA Quadulator and
the various JVC CD-4 mastering systems (including confirmation
that CBS had a CD-4 mastering system).

Lou Dorren also checked earlier this year for the existence of
CD-4 mastering systems, there are none in the USA, but there
might still be one in Japan.

A discussion area about Discrete LP Formats (CD-4,UD-4):
http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22

Kirk Bayne

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