Hi All,
I'm researching lacquer master disc production.
I've got the basics, (and a basic formula thanks to this forum) to start doing some experimenting with.
I think I've read everything on here relating to how they're made. If you've got other thoughts for me, I'd love to hear them.
I've been pressing records since July in Vancouver and like most of the other record pressing companies, I'm reliant on lacquers.
Obviously, Apollo's fire has got all of us scrambling.
I am very seriously considering starting a manufacturing facility up here.
Also, I'm new to the forum, so hello Lathe Trolls. I've ended up here a bunch of times in doing research while starting the record pressing company.
Thanks for all of the information!
Billy
Producing Lacquers
Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn
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petermontg
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:51 am
- Location: Ireland.
Re: Producing Lacquers
Hi Bill,
There is a burkle coater on eBay at the moment might be worth having a look for some in storage.
It would be a start.
Best
Peter
There is a burkle coater on eBay at the moment might be worth having a look for some in storage.
It would be a start.
Best
Peter
Peter Montgomery
+353(0)894926271
peter(at)petermontgomerymastering.com
Stereo cutter head wanted. Send email or smoke signals.
+353(0)894926271
peter(at)petermontgomerymastering.com
Stereo cutter head wanted. Send email or smoke signals.
Re: Producing Lacquers
In italy there is a big company starting producing lacquers.
This should be a good news after the Apollo fire disaster
This should be a good news after the Apollo fire disaster
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BillyBones
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Re: Producing Lacquers
Soprano C, tell me more.
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Greg Reierson
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:31 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN
- Contact:
Re: Producing Lacquers
Yes, please tell us more.
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BillyBones
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Re: Producing Lacquers
I see there is another members only thread with a little more info.
Re: Producing Lacquers
My 2 cents: its doubtful that a new startup would even be able to find insurance coverage for processing and storing the nitro especially after this apollo incident. Without a properly designed building including blast relief walls, explosion/hazardous rated electrical equipment, halo suppression system, clean room for worker exposure mitigation, etc I dont think an insurance carrier would even consider it. And even if you had a million to throw at the project and found a carrier, I couldn't imagine what the premiums would be.
Re: Producing Lacquers
Que lots of 'butane hash oil' style videos of lathe trolls mixing up nitrocellulose...
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dietrich10
- Posts: 844
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:18 pm
- Location: usa
- Contact:
Re: Producing Lacquers
There are hundreds of business' with similar chemical risks. My studio neighbors 3 doors down made tape adhesive and they caught fire 6 months ago and all was lost. They already are setup in a new property
cutting lacquers-vms70 system
Re: Producing Lacquers
The slightly higher level question is if celluloid is still the way to go?
I mean back in the 50's, hell yea, but we used that shit for cinema film back then as well, and polymer science was very much in its infancy, today there might actually be better options that lack the downsides of lots of stressed bonds with nitrogen.
Of course with a niche and declining market there has been little incentive to put the research in....
Incidentally, if you do want to play with nitro lacquer, it is available off the shelf from luthiers supply places (it is used as a finish on guitars!), probably need some additives for record secret sauce and you would want a well ventilated clean room for coating and drying...
Do I recall correctly that at one point master disks were cut on WAX coated blanks? IIRC the issue was that transport temperature to the plating plant mattered more then somewhat, and obviously you could not really play the direct cut, but it might be workable?
I mean back in the 50's, hell yea, but we used that shit for cinema film back then as well, and polymer science was very much in its infancy, today there might actually be better options that lack the downsides of lots of stressed bonds with nitrogen.
Of course with a niche and declining market there has been little incentive to put the research in....
Incidentally, if you do want to play with nitro lacquer, it is available off the shelf from luthiers supply places (it is used as a finish on guitars!), probably need some additives for record secret sauce and you would want a well ventilated clean room for coating and drying...
Do I recall correctly that at one point master disks were cut on WAX coated blanks? IIRC the issue was that transport temperature to the plating plant mattered more then somewhat, and obviously you could not really play the direct cut, but it might be workable?
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BillyBones
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:30 pm
Re: Producing Lacquers
This has been on my mind as well. Maybe there's something other than this decades-old mix of nitro and 2 stroke oil that will give us a nice soft smooth surface.
One of the things that has got me up for running these tests is that I used to have a company that built electric guitars.
Most of the time we sprayed polyeurethane, but when we were looking for a thin light vintage feel, we sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer (nitro).
It's still readily available here in Canada.
One of the things that has got me up for running these tests is that I used to have a company that built electric guitars.
Most of the time we sprayed polyeurethane, but when we were looking for a thin light vintage feel, we sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer (nitro).
It's still readily available here in Canada.
Re: Producing Lacquers
anyone know any Nail Polish producers? maybe they have some knowledge
Re: Producing Lacquers
I was wondering about something that would take a cut in a relatively soft material and could then be UV crosslinked to harden it?
UV cure resins are a modern thing and quite popular for circuit board encapsulation, trick would be to find something that would cut in its uncured state and then become very hard on exposure to the UV. The usual kind are thin liquids in the uncured state, but to what extent that is just because that is the useful form for that application rather then intrinsic to the chemistry I don't know.
Anyone here know polymer chemistry?
UV cure resins are a modern thing and quite popular for circuit board encapsulation, trick would be to find something that would cut in its uncured state and then become very hard on exposure to the UV. The usual kind are thin liquids in the uncured state, but to what extent that is just because that is the useful form for that application rather then intrinsic to the chemistry I don't know.
Anyone here know polymer chemistry?
Re: Producing Lacquers
OK, this might be a “jumping off point” but if anyone decides to try doing this on their own and you blow yourself or your home/apartment up in the process, I’m not responsible… The coating on lacquer discs is chemically close to nail polish, with a few variations that I think someone could work out, then figure out how to scale up the "mix" for production.
Nail polish – 500 gram batch; scaling up will most likely change amount of individual ingredients:
1. Butyl Acetate – 27%; 135 grams
2. Ethyl Acetate – 23.2%; 116 grams
3. Toluene – 12%; 60 grams
4. Nitrocellulose (30% active IPA) 13%; 65 grams
5. Tosylamide/Formaldehyde Resin – 9%; 45 grams
6. Dibutyl Phthalate – 7%; 35 grams
7. Isopropyl Alcohol – 5%; 25 grams
8. Stearalkonium Hectorite – 1.5%; 7.5 grams
9. Camphor – .95%; 4.75 grams
10. Benzophenone–1 – .15%; .75 grams
I have no idea as to coloration, but the dye content would total 1.2% (equaling 6 grams) to get the dark blue/purple color of a standard lacquer disc coating. Dye usually consists of an amount of titanium dioxide and dye powders. An example would be .5% Titanium Dioxide (2.5g), .5% Red #7 (2.5g) and .2% Red #34 (1g). Liquid dyes were the standard years ago; powders are the current choice, but may add surface noise, so for lacquers, they may still have been using some sort of liquid dye.
There is also a percentage of castor oil in lacquer disc coating material, but I don’t know the actual percentage or total amount in grams. The castor oil is most likely to soften the “mix” to be easily cuttable by the recording stylus, but durable enough for playback/electroforming. It could possibly be a replacement for the dibutyl phthalate, as it is a similar compound, with a similar function. If someone knows enough about chemistry to ‘tweek’ the formula, we might have a working coating material.
Mixing the formula:
Combine the first three items in a heavy glass container. Dissolve items four and five in a separate container. TOLUENE AND NITROCELLULOSE IS DANGEROUSLY EXPLOSIVE!!!! Blend the titanium dioxide and dye powders in a grinding mill then add them to the main batch (items 1, 2 and 3), then add remaining ingredients.
MORE INFORMATION ON MIXING:
The primary ingredient in nail polish is nitrocellulose (cellulose nitrate) cotton, a flammable and explosive ingredient also used in making dynamite. Nitrocellulose is a liquid mixed with tiny, near-microscopic cotton fibers. In the manufacturing process, the cotton fibers are ground even smaller and do not need to be removed. The nitrocellulose can be purchased in various viscosities to match the desired viscosity of the final product.
Nitrocellulose acts as a film forming agent. For nail polish to work properly, a hard film must form on the exposed surface of the nail, but it cannot form so quickly that it prevents the material underneath from drying. By itself or used with other functional ingredients, the nitrocellulose film is brittle and adheres poorly to nails.
Manufacturers add synthetic resins, plasticizers and occasionally similar, natural products to their mixes to improve flexibility, resistance to soap and water and other qualities; older recipes sometimes even used nylon for this purpose. Because of the number of desired qualities involved, however, there is no single resin or combination of resins that meets every specification. Among the resins and plasticizers in use today are castor oil, amyl and butyl stearate, and mixes of glycerol, fatty acids and acetic acids.
The colorings and other components of nail polish must be contained within one or more solvents that hold the colorings and other materials until the polish is applied. After application, the solvent must be able to evaporate. In many cases, the solvent also acts a plasticizer. Butyl stearate and acetate compounds are perhaps the most common.
Finally, the polish must have a color. Early polishes used soluble dyes, but today's product contains pigments of one type or another. Choice of pigment and its ability to mix well with the solvent and other ingredients is essential to producing a good quality product.
The modern manufacturing process is a very sophisticated operation utilizing highly skilled workers, advanced machinery and even robotics. Today's consumers expect a nail polish to apply smoothly, evenly, and easily; to set relatively quickly; and to be resistant to chipping and peeling. In addition, the polish should be dermatologically innocuous.
Mixing the pigment with nitrocellulose and plasticizer
1. The pigments are mixed with nitrocellulose and plasticizer using a "two-roll" differential speed mill. This mill grinds the pigment between a pair of rollers that are able to work with increasing speed as the pigment is ground down. The goal is to produce fine dispersion of the color. A variation of this mill is the Banbury Mixer (used also in the production of rubber for rubber bands).
2. When properly and fully milled, the mixture is removed from the mill in sheet form and then broken up into small chips for mixing with the solvent. The mixing is performed in stainless steel kettles that can hold anywhere from 5 to 2,000 gallons. Stainless steel must be used because the nitrocellulose is extremely reactive in the presence of iron. The kettles are jacketed so that the mixture can be cooled by circulating cold water or another liquid around the outside of the kettle. The temperature of the kettle, and the rate of cooling, are controlled by both computers and technicians.
This step is performed in a special room or area designed to control the hazards of fire and explosion. Most modern factories perform this step in an area with walls that will close in if an alarm sounds and, in the event of explosion, with ceilings that will safely blow off without endangering the rest of the structure.
Adding other ingredients
3. Materials are mixed in computerized, closed kettles. At the end of the process, the mix is cooled slightly before the addition of such other materials such as perfumes and moisturizers.
4. The mixture is then pumped into smaller, 55 gallon drums, and then trucked to a production line. The finished nail polish is pumped using explosion proof pumps into smaller bottles suitable for the retail market.
Any thoughts about insurance or manufacturing permitting would also apply to this operation:
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-opi-coty-nail-polish-20160126-story.html
Just a major explosion/fire waiting to happen, no matter where located. It’s pretty much the same stuff. Many other industrial processes are equally dangerous, but get their operations set up and running one way or another.
Nail polish – 500 gram batch; scaling up will most likely change amount of individual ingredients:
1. Butyl Acetate – 27%; 135 grams
2. Ethyl Acetate – 23.2%; 116 grams
3. Toluene – 12%; 60 grams
4. Nitrocellulose (30% active IPA) 13%; 65 grams
5. Tosylamide/Formaldehyde Resin – 9%; 45 grams
6. Dibutyl Phthalate – 7%; 35 grams
7. Isopropyl Alcohol – 5%; 25 grams
8. Stearalkonium Hectorite – 1.5%; 7.5 grams
9. Camphor – .95%; 4.75 grams
10. Benzophenone–1 – .15%; .75 grams
I have no idea as to coloration, but the dye content would total 1.2% (equaling 6 grams) to get the dark blue/purple color of a standard lacquer disc coating. Dye usually consists of an amount of titanium dioxide and dye powders. An example would be .5% Titanium Dioxide (2.5g), .5% Red #7 (2.5g) and .2% Red #34 (1g). Liquid dyes were the standard years ago; powders are the current choice, but may add surface noise, so for lacquers, they may still have been using some sort of liquid dye.
There is also a percentage of castor oil in lacquer disc coating material, but I don’t know the actual percentage or total amount in grams. The castor oil is most likely to soften the “mix” to be easily cuttable by the recording stylus, but durable enough for playback/electroforming. It could possibly be a replacement for the dibutyl phthalate, as it is a similar compound, with a similar function. If someone knows enough about chemistry to ‘tweek’ the formula, we might have a working coating material.
Mixing the formula:
Combine the first three items in a heavy glass container. Dissolve items four and five in a separate container. TOLUENE AND NITROCELLULOSE IS DANGEROUSLY EXPLOSIVE!!!! Blend the titanium dioxide and dye powders in a grinding mill then add them to the main batch (items 1, 2 and 3), then add remaining ingredients.
MORE INFORMATION ON MIXING:
The primary ingredient in nail polish is nitrocellulose (cellulose nitrate) cotton, a flammable and explosive ingredient also used in making dynamite. Nitrocellulose is a liquid mixed with tiny, near-microscopic cotton fibers. In the manufacturing process, the cotton fibers are ground even smaller and do not need to be removed. The nitrocellulose can be purchased in various viscosities to match the desired viscosity of the final product.
Nitrocellulose acts as a film forming agent. For nail polish to work properly, a hard film must form on the exposed surface of the nail, but it cannot form so quickly that it prevents the material underneath from drying. By itself or used with other functional ingredients, the nitrocellulose film is brittle and adheres poorly to nails.
Manufacturers add synthetic resins, plasticizers and occasionally similar, natural products to their mixes to improve flexibility, resistance to soap and water and other qualities; older recipes sometimes even used nylon for this purpose. Because of the number of desired qualities involved, however, there is no single resin or combination of resins that meets every specification. Among the resins and plasticizers in use today are castor oil, amyl and butyl stearate, and mixes of glycerol, fatty acids and acetic acids.
The colorings and other components of nail polish must be contained within one or more solvents that hold the colorings and other materials until the polish is applied. After application, the solvent must be able to evaporate. In many cases, the solvent also acts a plasticizer. Butyl stearate and acetate compounds are perhaps the most common.
Finally, the polish must have a color. Early polishes used soluble dyes, but today's product contains pigments of one type or another. Choice of pigment and its ability to mix well with the solvent and other ingredients is essential to producing a good quality product.
The modern manufacturing process is a very sophisticated operation utilizing highly skilled workers, advanced machinery and even robotics. Today's consumers expect a nail polish to apply smoothly, evenly, and easily; to set relatively quickly; and to be resistant to chipping and peeling. In addition, the polish should be dermatologically innocuous.
Mixing the pigment with nitrocellulose and plasticizer
1. The pigments are mixed with nitrocellulose and plasticizer using a "two-roll" differential speed mill. This mill grinds the pigment between a pair of rollers that are able to work with increasing speed as the pigment is ground down. The goal is to produce fine dispersion of the color. A variation of this mill is the Banbury Mixer (used also in the production of rubber for rubber bands).
2. When properly and fully milled, the mixture is removed from the mill in sheet form and then broken up into small chips for mixing with the solvent. The mixing is performed in stainless steel kettles that can hold anywhere from 5 to 2,000 gallons. Stainless steel must be used because the nitrocellulose is extremely reactive in the presence of iron. The kettles are jacketed so that the mixture can be cooled by circulating cold water or another liquid around the outside of the kettle. The temperature of the kettle, and the rate of cooling, are controlled by both computers and technicians.
This step is performed in a special room or area designed to control the hazards of fire and explosion. Most modern factories perform this step in an area with walls that will close in if an alarm sounds and, in the event of explosion, with ceilings that will safely blow off without endangering the rest of the structure.
Adding other ingredients
3. Materials are mixed in computerized, closed kettles. At the end of the process, the mix is cooled slightly before the addition of such other materials such as perfumes and moisturizers.
4. The mixture is then pumped into smaller, 55 gallon drums, and then trucked to a production line. The finished nail polish is pumped using explosion proof pumps into smaller bottles suitable for the retail market.
Any thoughts about insurance or manufacturing permitting would also apply to this operation:
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-opi-coty-nail-polish-20160126-story.html
Just a major explosion/fire waiting to happen, no matter where located. It’s pretty much the same stuff. Many other industrial processes are equally dangerous, but get their operations set up and running one way or another.
Re: Producing Lacquers
wow nice one emoritt!
Re: Producing Lacquers
I finally found this:
HTTP://www.mvmasters.it
HTTP://www.mvmasters.it