New: Phonocut Desktop Disc Cutter

[tragwag]

V2 fixed the motor pitch wobble which is great news

[CutR]

From the phonocut newsletter

Per-Order online for pickup at Dussmann Berlin and/or see PHONOCUT in Berlin this Saturday at Dussmann [Friedrichstrasse 90, 10117 Berlin, Germany]. Special PHONOCUT demonstrations will happen every two hours from 11:00 to 15:00 CET.

[martel80]

I bought my phonocut in July.

I am contemplating the price of a 100 ( no jacket ) Blank record pack on their website. That's 780 euros. About 1210$ Canadian.

Now I've been out searching for other 10'' blank disc and found some 1.5mm at 2.75$ a disc and 2mm at 3.00$ . that would make a 100 pack of 1.5mm at 275$ USD ( 365$ canadian ) and 2mm at 300$ USD (400 $ Canadian )

Thats a margin of 800$ per 100 disc which is Extremely big in my opinion. For every 100 Phonocut blank records, I could buy 300 normal 2mm Blank records at recordblanks dot com

Thats not counting the shipping. I paid 388 Euros of shipping for the Phonocut. Thats like a 100 lbs wood crate shipping with DHL from Canada to Colombia. Im pretty sure , the shipping price would be comparable for 100 disk as its very heavy.

I'm not complaining but as I'm new to this Vinyl record world, I decided to shop around to see how much would a 100 record cut, jacket printed and wraped would cost and got some quote at about the same price as a 100 pack of blank records. plus my time not cutting the records. And thats whithout the price of the machine included in the calculation nor the needle that need to be changed every 100 records. Nor the extra jackets nor the ink for the printer .... It really start to add up.

If the cost of the blank was to be cut by 66%, I could see why I'd want to press my music project on the phonocut but other then me experiementing at home , It doesnt seem to be a viable way of pressing my own short run music.

Is there anything I missed or did I forgot something in my calculation ?

Like I said, I will definitely use it for other purposes like to record some sound and scratch them or bent them with a hairdryer but Im wondering if my idea of self producing my own record is just out of touch with the current market price and id be sending money down the drain ?

What are your take on it ?

[socialroots]

Welcome to the cutting game. I hope you read PIAPTK advice for people looking to get into the record cutting game in the newbies section. Getting records pressed usually is cheaper and higher quality,but at larger quantities than some artist might need.
Maximum respect
patrick

[piaptk]

I bought my phonocut in July.

I am contemplating the price of a 100 ( no jacket ) Blank record pack on their website. That's 780 euros. About 1210$ Canadian.

Now I've been out searching for other 10'' blank disc and found some 1.5mm at 2.75$ a disc and 2mm at 3.00$ . that would make a 100 pack of 1.5mm at 275$ USD ( 365$ canadian ) and 2mm at 300$ USD (400 $ Canadian )

Thats a margin of 800$ per 100 disc which is Extremely big in my opinion. For every 100 Phonocut blank records, I could buy 300 normal 2mm Blank records at recordblanks dot com

Thats not counting the shipping. I paid 388 Euros of shipping for the Phonocut. Thats like a 100 lbs wood crate shipping with DHL from Canada to Colombia. Im pretty sure , the shipping price would be comparable for 100 disk as its very heavy.

I'm not complaining but as I'm new to this Vinyl record world, I decided to shop around to see how much would a 100 record cut, jacket printed and wraped would cost and got some quote at about the same price as a 100 pack of blank records. plus my time not cutting the records. And thats whithout the price of the machine included in the calculation nor the needle that need to be changed every 100 records. Nor the extra jackets nor the ink for the printer .... It really start to add up.

If the cost of the blank was to be cut by 66%, I could see why I'd want to press my music project on the phonocut but other then me experiementing at home , It doesnt seem to be a viable way of pressing my own short run music.

Is there anything I missed or did I forgot something in my calculation ?

Like I said, I will definitely use it for other purposes like to record some sound and scratch them or bent them with a hairdryer but Im wondering if my idea of self producing my own record is just out of touch with the current market price and id be sending money down the drain ?

What are your take on it ?

If you read higher up in this thread (or perhaps a different one), one of Phonocut’s designers has said that if you do not use Phonocut blanks, you will not be able to get their service, which includes new diamond needles (you will have to send the entire cutting Head back to them for needle replacement).

One of the other folks involved also mentioned that they are planning to RFID chip the blanks (or something similar) in order to make the machine only work with their blanks.

[flozki]

i think you can put whatever blank you want. just not sure if they fit an if you have best results.

i guess phonocut will have not an open ear if you send in a broken stylus because of using wrong blanks.
i am sure you will get always new styli , repair from phonocut. but not for free.

its not the soury practice that you will be banned if you break the rules.
but warranty will be gone..

and to do the math. you pay the cutter by the blanks. very simple.

a fully working cuttter of ( questionable quality) summs up to to 5-8k with turntable and everything.
the phonocut is something 2-3k , i dont know the actual price.
so you can cut many blaks to come to same price.
and if you are in the pro business and want to make some money.. buy a pro lathe.

[soeffingodly]

What are your take on it ?

You should check this post out by Mike:

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8328

Welcome to the world of record cutting. It's super expensive no matter how you look at it. I've been cutting for a while now and am still hemmoraging money in my business. But I love it and it's worth every maddening penny I spend.

[piaptk]

i think you can put whatever blank you want. just not sure if they fit an if you have best results.

i guess phonocut will have not an open ear if you send in a broken stylus because of using wrong blanks.
i am sure you will get always new styli , repair from phonocut. but not for free.

its not the soury practice that you will be banned if you break the rules.
but warranty will be gone..

and to do the math. you pay the cutter by the blanks. very simple.

a fully working cuttter of ( questionable quality) summs up to to 5-8k with turntable and everything.
the phonocut is something 2-3k , i dont know the actual price.
so you can cut many blaks to come to same price.
and if you are in the pro business and want to make some money.. buy a pro lathe.

Thanks for the clarification, Flo. For some reason I remembered your earlier posts being a little more stern in that regard.

[powerstrip]

...For every 100 Phonocut blank records, I could buy 300 normal 2mm Blank records at recordblanks dot com ...

What are your take on it ?

Yeah you would have 300 blanks from record blanks dot com

which means you can destroy your diamond stylus and still have 297 records left over ... !

those are made for embossing 100% not the material to use for cutting . Destroying a $300 diamond stylus is not an easy pill to swallow

[martel80]

Im not sure if its a language barrier or if I'm having issues making myself clear .

My point is,

for 100 blanks of Phonocut 10'' disc, it will cost me 920$ USD ( not including the jacket, not the insert ,not the printing, not the wrap, not the new stylus every 100 records nor the shipping to canada for both the stylus and the blank records )

For 100 12'' records pressed (about 40% more record time per side ) , full color jacket, insert, wrap and shipped from many shops, it would cost me approx. 1250$ USD.

So the question remain,

Other then handcrafting and uncle tom mixtape, what's the point if not solely for under 50 record pressed of a project ?

In all other case, Im way under financuially and im not even putting the Phonocut in the calculation.

It seems obvious to me that its an horrible investment as record pressing shop would do it on 12.. at a cheaper price all included. Not only the blank disc.

Its an honest question !!

Im not here to insult anyone, I'm just trying to figure out a good reason why I spent that much money without making the obvious calculation first and hope someone can shed some light in what appear like one of the dumbest purchase I ever made.

[martel80]

Welcome to the cutting game. I hope you read PIAPTK advice for people looking to get into the record cutting game in the newbies section. Getting records pressed usually is cheaper and higher quality,but at larger quantities than some artist might need.
Maximum respect
patrick

Thanks Patrick, Appreciated.

I think I really underestimated the complexity of all the other steps AFTER carving the record with the phonocut.

Im a bit ashamed of myself and hope someone can weither cheer me up with a perspective I might have lost or confirm that there's nothiung much then a money pit for the only gain of being able to say that I did it myself.

[piaptk]

Not everything with a $2000 entry price point is a slam dunk business opportunity.

[piaptk]

I will give you a hint, tho. Of the maybe 10-15 folks that currently eek out a meager and modest living making lathe cuts (not counting pro mastering engineers), not a single one of them compares themselves in service offerings or pricing to a pressing plant the way you are. Creative, not linear, thinking, is the only way to even have a tiny chance of monetizing this.

Also, a lot of us got into this originally as a creative venture. A hobby. Not an exclusively profit turning business endeavor. Coming in and the baby stages of the hobby in the early aughts, I personally spent 7 years and about $100,000 before i turned a penny of profit and paid off my learning curve to get into the black. Unless someone has a ton of passion and is willing to lose money for a while, maybe forever, it is highly unlikely they will stick it out long enough to figure out an angle that is profitable.

[emorritt]

Let's see. A portable disc recorder, stereo, very good quality, $2,000 - $3,000 pricetag. Hmmm. In 1940, a Presto 'K' recorder sold for $215. To buy that same machine today, you would pay $4000. In 1942, a Universal "Professional" lathe in the Allied Catalog was $250. To buy that same machine now according to inflation calculators, you would have to pay $2,900. In 1952, A Rek-O-Kut Challenger, listed in the Allied Radio catalog - a portable professional recorder - was $460. Today, to buy that same machine would be $4,500. Considering the design, engineering - both for the case of the machine and the parts and the manufacture thereof - the electronics, cutting head, etc., $2,000 to $4,000 for the unit seems like a reasonable price, especially compared to a Scully or Neumann machine with electronics for nearly $40,000. Just my $.02

[martel80]

I will give you a hint, tho. Of the maybe 10-15 folks that currently eek out a meager and modest living making lathe cuts (not counting pro mastering engineers), not a single one of them compares themselves in service offerings or pricing to a pressing plant the way you are. Creative, not linear, thinking, is the only way to even have a tiny chance of monetizing this.

Also, a lot of us got into this originally as a creative venture. A hobby. Not an exclusively profit turning business endeavor. Coming in and the baby stages of the hobby in the early aughts, I personally spent 7 years and about $100,000 before i turned a penny of profit and paid off my learning curve to get into the black. Unless someone has a ton of passion and is willing to lose money for a while, maybe forever, it is highly unlikely they will stick it out long enough to figure out an angle that is profitable.

As much as you were the one as close as the point im trying to make so far, It still feel like I'm not clear enough or im not understood properly.

Nothing to do with the craft or the price of the machine but only and solely saving on pressing/carving my own music...which so far is far from the case as I have shown in the previous post and you seem to confirm.

On the other hand, what I keep on reading from everyone answering my message is that its a cheap carving machine compared to other ones, which, by the way, I never said it wasnt. So, I wonder where this idea is comming from.

What I understand from your answer is that, if someone is not doing this just because they love it, its an horrible investment as there is no margin anywhere to gain over making your music press at a plant.

And thats all I really wanted to make sure as I have interest in music composition, music mixing and the creative process of the media including video , photos , cover and short spots but absolutely no place in my life to spend more money then I should in duplicating.

In clearer words, I just invested money in a duplication machine that will cost me morein the short 1 x 100 batch term and enormeously more in the 1x1000 batch term then any other professional press offering on the market as we speak.

That is really all I wanted to confirm and Im grateful for your honesty that this is a machine solely for handcrafting purposes and not for effective duplication purposes.

I will have a Phonocut to sell at preorder price when I receive it in March.

If interested, let me know in private.

All the best.

[monkfish]

I can't speak to the Phonocut specifically, but as far as an advantage to having a personal disc-cutter, I feel the main advantages are making small quantities and making them quickly. I think many musicians (myself included) can't likely sell even 100 copies of something reliably, but can easily sell 10-20.

You could, for instance, make 25 copies of a new record once a month, and if you have a small community of fans, turn a small profit with the right price points. DIY packaging and creative packaging/artwork goes a long way and can be very cheap -- plus the fact that it would be "limited edition". Contrast that with getting a record pressed, which involves a long wait and potentially ending up with a huge pile of records that no one wants of some music you're already sick of, because your small fan-base already bought one each. I haven't experienced this exactly as I've never had a record pressed, but I certainly do still have a few hundred CDs of an album I don't identify with anymore that I'd like to bury in the woods...

The profit margins on the Phonocut do sound thinner than other options, but I assume the trade-off is an easier learning curve, therefore less time and junked blanks at the start? Plus stereo and apparently good sound quality. It's not the option I would have gone for even if it had been available at the time, but I still think it could be very useful given the right circumstances of the user. The question is whether it will work for you I guess.

EDIT: Just saw you mention earlier about uses besides small runs under 50 records -- I would say the higher quantity you want, the less sense it makes to invest in any lathe for that purpose. So if your main plans are to make 100 or so records at a time, unless you're very concerned with the time it takes to press a record (which I personally am), then perhaps it's not the right option for you.

[Shamax]

I see Phonocut filling a very specific niche, and one that fits my situation pretty well. I run a very small label, and have put out a handful of cassettes, pressed LP's and lathe-cuts (most of them done by the folks here). I'd love to be able to source a good Presto, fit it with a Stereo cutter head and do all of my own cuts myself, but I don't have the up-front capital, the space, or the time to learn all of the specific wizardry that goes into rebuilding and maintaining a vintage lathe. With Phonocut I'll be able to make very short-run, handmade releases of demos, rehearsals, live recordings, or short EP's for my friends' projects. Being the closest thing I've seen to a turnkey solution means I can focus more on the packaging, art, and promo while still being somewhat DIY. I doubt I'd consider using Phonocut for anything over a pressing of 10 or 20 max, but that's what suits my situation perfectly.

My hope is that they'll still be able to find a good distributor to handle the blanks for customers in the US and Canada, so we don't get hit with the international shipping charges all the time. Even without that, though, it seems like it'll make a reasonably-priced handmade 10" for very short runs.

[martel80]

I can't speak to the Phonocut specifically, but as far as an advantage to having a personal disc-cutter, I feel the main advantages are making small quantities and making them quickly. I think many musicians (myself included) can't likely sell even 100 copies of something reliably, but can easily sell 10-20.

You could, for instance, make 25 copies of a new record once a month, and if you have a small community of fans, turn a small profit with the right price points. DIY packaging and creative packaging/artwork goes a long way and can be very cheap -- plus the fact that it would be "limited edition". Contrast that with getting a record pressed, which involves a long wait and potentially ending up with a huge pile of records that no one wants of some music you're already sick of, because your small fan-base already bought one each. I haven't experienced this exactly as I've never had a record pressed, but I certainly do still have a few hundred CDs of an album I don't identify with anymore that I'd like to bury in the woods...

The profit margins on the Phonocut do sound thinner than other options, but I assume the trade-off is an easier learning curve, therefore less time and junked blanks at the start? Plus stereo and apparently good sound quality. It's not the option I would have gone for even if it had been available at the time, but I still think it could be very useful given the right circumstances of the user. The question is whether it will work for you I guess.

EDIT: Just saw you mention earlier about uses besides small runs under 50 records -- I would say the higher quantity you want, the less sense it makes to invest in any lathe for that purpose. So if your main plans are to make 100 or so records at a time, unless you're very concerned with the time it takes to press a record (which I personally am), then perhaps it's not the right option for you.

See, that was exactly my point of view at first and I lost focus looking at the price of 100 12'' copies. I dont have a big fan base neither and thats a very very good point you are putting up right there.

I also made the mistake of making a 3000 cd duplication for one of my first project back in early 2000. Ended up with half pilled up for 10 years in the basement of a friend until we decided to use them to shoot our 12 gauges at in a field.

I see Phonocut filling a very specific niche, and one that fits my situation pretty well. I run a very small label, and have put out a handful of cassettes, pressed LP's and lathe-cuts (most of them done by the folks here). I'd love to be able to source a good Presto, fit it with a Stereo cutter head and do all of my own cuts myself, but I don't have the up-front capital, the space, or the time to learn all of the specific wizardry that goes into rebuilding and maintaining a vintage lathe. With Phonocut I'll be able to make very short-run, handmade releases of demos, rehearsals, live recordings, or short EP's for my friends' projects. Being the closest thing I've seen to a turnkey solution means I can focus more on the packaging, art, and promo while still being somewhat DIY. I doubt I'd consider using Phonocut for anything over a pressing of 10 or 20 max, but that's what suits my situation perfectly.

My hope is that they'll still be able to find a good distributor to handle the blanks for customers in the US and Canada, so we don't get hit with the international shipping charges all the time. Even without that, though, it seems like it'll make a reasonably-priced handmade 10" for very short runs.

I think the shipping is what scares me the most.

They charge me 388 euros of Shipping for one Phonocut to Montreal Canada.

Im super scared of the shipping fees for 100 blanks which might be at least 3 time the weight and at least twice the size and that doesnt include the jackets.

I mean, blank jackets are about 0.50$ each but I wonder how I can make a decent print on it.

I mean, which printer would print on already folded and glued jackets ?

How much is that printer ?

Wrapping is really inexpensive so definitely not an issue.

Ah man, I dont like being split between 2 side of the same story like that.

[socialroots]

Welcome to the cutting game. I hope you read PIAPTK advice for people looking to get into the record cutting game in the newbies section. Getting records pressed usually is cheaper and higher quality,but at larger quantities than some artist might need.
Maximum respect
patrick

Thanks Patrick, Appreciated.

I think I really underestimated the complexity of all the other steps AFTER carving the record with the phonocut.

Im a bit ashamed of myself and hope someone can weither cheer me up with a perspective I might have lost or confirm that there's nothiung much then a money pit for the only gain of being able to say that I did it myself.

Dont worry,its only money,alot of us here in this forum all got into cutting game underestimating the complexity of steps involved and the amount of money this hobby really costs.the feeling is gonna be like spending the whole winter inna Canada paying the hydro electric company the bill you racked up for using a electric floorboard heater inna home without insulated walls and big old single pane windows that are not sealed up with plastic!
I always tell people that ask that ask themselves the question "can i afford getting a lathe and get into the cutting game?" This, if you gotta ask yourself that question ,then you probably cant afford it. Thats the reality ,for the home guy or gal cutting,we all do it for the love of cutting records cuz your not only gonna have a hard time making money from this but your also gonna put in an enormous amount of your time into your craft,time that you will mostly not get paid for. There is no such thing as Freetime and everyday you only got 24hrs!

Maximum respect,
Patrick

[EposLab]

Im not sure if its a language barrier or if I'm having issues making myself clear .

My point is,

for 100 blanks of Phonocut 10'' disc, it will cost me 920$ USD ( not including the jacket, not the insert ,not the printing, not the wrap, not the new stylus every 100 records nor the shipping to canada for both the stylus and the blank records )

For 100 12'' records pressed (about 40% more record time per side ) , full color jacket, insert, wrap and shipped from many shops, it would cost me approx. 1250$ USD.

So the question remain,

Other then handcrafting and uncle tom mixtape, what's the point if not solely for under 50 record pressed of a project ?

In all other case, Im way under financuially and im not even putting the Phonocut in the calculation.

It seems obvious to me that its an horrible investment as record pressing shop would do it on 12.. at a cheaper price all included. Not only the blank disc.

Its an honest question !!

Im not here to insult anyone, I'm just trying to figure out a good reason why I spent that much money without making the obvious calculation first and hope someone can shed some light in what appear like one of the dumbest purchase I ever made.

If you are not really happy with your investment, just wait alittle more till you will get the phonocut in your hands. Since i believe there are folks who were not on time to order one, they will be happy to buy one after. So this will be easier for you to sell your machine and get your money back!