Holographic recording of analogue-continuous signal.

[OptVox]

Hi,

I want to introduce the working principle for a new analogue recording technology. (Pictures below).

It is an analogue holographic audio recorder. It utilizes the simultaneous modulation of the intensity of a laser beam; and the correlative phase between a reference beam and an object beam (both obtained with a beam splitter from the primary beam already modulated in amplitude), to produce an holographic track in a disc or tape.

It might serve to record a relief groove compatible with gramophone record players, or a holographic track in an optical substrate (could be glass, methacrylathe, azo dye, silver halides, etc.).

Aside audio, another possible applications are video and data (maybe recorded in an analogue carrier, or not) , and other complex modulations. Plus the use of this holographic array to transmit data thru optical fibre and air. With possible applications in inducing mechanical vibrations at a distance...

The picture (below) shows the design of a holographic stereo-recording head.

1) A laser emitter, which intensity level is modulated by direct modulation, with the audio signal as input/control source.

2)Collimating beam expander lens.

3)Beam splitters.

4)Reference beam.

5)Object-beam.

6)Condenser lens.

7)Mirror.

8)Moving coil.

9) Magnet.

10) Compliant suspension ring.

11) Focal point/recording.

12) Recording media.

The moving coil transducer is an audio motor that reflects the light.

The input to record enters thru two/three separate channels: one for the laser, and one for each mechanical driver.

The recordings could be either relief-holograms (mechanical recordings) or variable density & diffraction index, optical recordings.

What do you think of this idea? Do you see any future for this?

I am the author/inventor. And I am currently in the search for funding opportunities and partners, etc. researchers and associates in general that want to put together a venture to develop my invention.

A patent has not been issued yet, but it has been already applied for. (Obvious variants like usign several more angle-channels, colors, a capacitor-based transducer or a piezo electric are also covered).

I'd love to hear your opinion about my idea. And I am open to hear about any future bussines ideas with it.

[markrob]

Hi,

Looks interesting. How would this approach create the groove geometry needed to be compatible with a standard phonograph record? Have you built up a prototype? Are you aware of the HDVinyl endeavor? The were not able to bring it to market despite a great deal of funding.

Mark

[OptVox]

Hello,

The groove geometry is created with the oscillation of the audio motors, and the modulation of the light in amplitude/intensity. Very much like a cutting lathe does.

There's a phenomenon called secondary emission, related to harmonics reinfocements and cancellations, that makes an hologram (a real hologram) to be sharper than an impression made with a single laser.

Also, I do not need to 'create' a groove geometry. This is an analogue design, it does it on its own.

HD vinyl is a different thing, with too many flaws. A flawed concept, a flawed approach... Please do not compare my idea to HD vinyl. Amanda Ghassei was first in creating any softwares for cutting records, anyways.

[dubcutter89]

Hi OptoVox!

Nice idea! To me seems kind of a hybrid between CD and phonograph record. But I'm not expert on optical systems beyond basics we learned at university....

What do you think of this idea? Do you see any future for this?

I don't want to be the bad guy but since you are asking - Too complex, and I don't see any future for this.
(Sorry, but I'm always open to change my opinion if I'm wrong...)
The technology is way more complex (and expensive) than anything commercial today, and I heavily doubt there's a need for this media.
Phonograph Record, CD, DVD, BlueRay... are all obsolete! Records being around because people like them, but they don't need them...
BTW - Just the other day I was talking with some friends and we found out that physical media in general are out.
Where would you store an HD-Movie? Flash drive (with a file system being able to hold single large files)? HDD(just a physical alternative to Flash drive)? Or as most, have it somewhere/nowhere floating on a server?

I don't want to say you should not go for it, please do! But I would not expect major fundings nor people buying new recorders/players that are huge and expensive and need specila media...

Good Luck!
Lukas

[dmills]

So modulating laser power while maintaining SLM with good coherence length operation?
Sounds frankly gnarly, unless you do something like use an AOM or Pockels cell to do the modulation with the laser itself running at constant power with the usual precision thermal management.
Even then, holography is something that generally requires the geometry to be stable to within a fraction of a wavelength of light at whatever laser wavelength is in use, this is why there are no holographic projectors in the manner of star wars, you just cannot hold the system in alignment while switching in new film 25 times a second....
Seems likely your recording rig would have the same issues.

Which brings me to the next point, a holographic recording should be distributed across the entire active surface of the media, the thing is not about bringing a beam to a focal point, but about capturing an interference pattern.

I am not really understanding how holography helps to cut the required groove geometry? You probably CAN do it with a laser, but not in this way.

[OptVox]

No SLM used, no OLM.

Its actual holography, like Dennis Gabor invented it. .. not the Texas Instrument's thing.

[OptVox]

Hi OptoVox!

Nice idea! To me seems kind of a hybrid between CD and phonograph record. But I'm not expert on optical systems beyond basics we learned at university....

What do you think of this idea? Do you see any future for this?

I don't want to be the bad guy but since you are asking - Too complex, and I don't see any future for this.
(Sorry, but I'm always open to change my opinion if I'm wrong...)
The technology is way more complex (and expensive) than anything commercial today, and I heavily doubt there's a need for this media.
Phonograph Record, CD, DVD, BlueRay... are all obsolete! Records being around because people like them, but they don't need them...
BTW - Just the other day I was talking with some friends and we found out that physical media in general are out.
Where would you store an HD-Movie? Flash drive (with a file system being able to hold single large files)? HDD(just a physical alternative to Flash drive)? Or as most, have it somewhere/nowhere floating on a server?

I don't want to say you should not go for it, please do! But I would not expect major fundings nor people buying new recorders/players that are huge and expensive and need specila media...

Good Luck!
Lukas

Well, precisely because people like it: is the reason why I believe it has a future.

[OptVox]

Hi OptoVox!

Nice idea! To me seems kind of a hybrid between CD and phonograph record. But I'm not expert on optical systems beyond basics we learned at university....

What do you think of this idea? Do you see any future for this?

I don't want to be the bad guy but since you are asking - Too complex, and I don't see any future for this.
(Sorry, but I'm always open to change my opinion if I'm wrong...)
The technology is way more complex (and expensive) than anything commercial today, and I heavily doubt there's a need for this media.
Phonograph Record, CD, DVD, BlueRay... are all obsolete! Records being around because people like them, but they don't need them...
BTW - Just the other day I was talking with some friends and we found out that physical media in general are out.
Where would you store an HD-Movie? Flash drive (with a file system being able to hold single large files)? HDD(just a physical alternative to Flash drive)? Or as most, have it somewhere/nowhere floating on a server?

I don't want to say you should not go for it, please do! But I would not expect major fundings nor people buying new recorders/players that are huge and expensive and need specila media...

Good Luck!
Lukas

Hello Sr. Thank you for your insight.

Just allow me correct you about one thing: my invention is just as simple as an actual record cutter or simpler. My design is a laser cutting head -analogue- that works with an interference pattern rather than with a single beam... It's actually easier to build and operate than an electro-mechanical cutting head.

And secondly: precisely because people like vinyl it is that I think this has a future. Don't you?

[dubcutter89]

my invention is just as simple as an actual record cutter

In theory it is simple, in practice it probably is not..

because people like vinyl it is that I think this has a future. Don't you?

Ok, so your goal actually is to make an optical/laser "phonograph disk recorder" that just makes standard vinyl records? If it works (perfect) it is cool, if not...well

Lukas

[OptVox]

Hi, two of my goals are to make a disk recorder player that records vinyl or an optical track that resembles the former. Recorded as an hologram, maybe in a substrate like blu-ray blue dye or similar.

The problems are/might be similar to those encountered in any of the optical disks formats. It's true that before any sure shot conclusions, a few real life tests have to be made.

[farmersplow]

I have a hard time imagining it working with laser holograms, but I couldn't imagine many things a couple of years ago.
Since I still don't fully understand the exact technology behind it, I won't say it's impossible.

When you do your first tests, please note that you do not cut into vinyl, PVC, PETG or similar plastics with the laser. This will produce highly toxic gases! (I only say this because you write about laser in vinyl and I also want to warn "imitators" about this).

In the HD vinyl project, my Austrian friends from Rebeat Innovation had cut directly into a ceramic die with the laser (without analog modulation). With there software "Perfect Groove" they had calculated the groove shape. Unfortunately, in the end only an accuracy of 100 nanometers could be achieved. (Neumann analog manages 1 nanometer accuracy). But I heard from the founder that in the meantime they are also working on an analog-controlled laser technology. - So it can already work - theoretically.

It will be a hard way...

[OptVox]

Oh Wow. Thank you for the warning, I had looked into it I must say... I've though about dyed/doped polycarbonate or glass-filled composite resin. A substrate with some mechanical compliance makes it better, I believe.

I started a number of threads here, if you want to look.

https://gearspace.com/board/all-things-technical/1395408-holographic-recording-continuous-analogue-audio-signals.html

Some other elements inherent to.the analogue world, like rotating the disk's platter which stabilizes the surface of the work-piece, the very slow and stable motion of the cutter-head that do the mechanical work, are necessary.

An analogue-continuous-wave laser and audio wave, is also. A pulsed wave shuts on-and-off the laser all the time and create peaks that induce noise.

I could not understand how a 10 micron stylus tip created 1micron cuts: it's all in the motion of the disk and the deflection of the energy by action of the rotating disk: in this case overlapping interference fringes of a wavelength of the light, with a holographic modulation , or phase/diffraction modulation, in-phase with the modulation in intensity, which I expect to deflect the light back and forth creating the p's and the d's of the groove.

[markrob]

Hi,

Could this method be reversed to work as an optical pickup?

Mark

[OptVox]

For mechanical records only, I don't like laser. I like a needle for a turntable, and a laser for optical.

Recording with a laser and reading with a needle is an stretch, and the other way around too, just the first one seems to work better....

[farmersplow]

I think a laser scanning system for pressed records in conjunction with a DA converter is a better business idea. (Better than a laser cutter to be played with needles).
Especially when I think about how many people need a record player and how many need a lathe...
At the very least, the "laser-system" should be able to do both burning and reading - especially if the (presumably) harder part is cutting.

EXCEPT!!! You produce the device for a record pressing plant and they save all the chemicals and processes of copying (father, mother, son, daughter...)
What do you think?

[markrob]

Hi,

My thinking is that if you want to attract investment money, you need to cobble up the simplest proof of concept prototype be it playback or recording that can demonstrate the merits both technical and economic. Do the least amount of work required using off the shelf parts. Something even as simple as a cutting single locked groove with some program material would be quite useful. Otherwise, its just an idea.

Mark

[OptVox]

That's right. Thank you.

[OptVox]

I think a laser scanning system for pressed records in conjunction with a DA converter is a better business idea. (Better than a laser cutter to be played with needles).
Especially when I think about how many people need a record player and how many need a lathe...
At the very least, the "laser-system" should be able to do both burning and reading - especially if the (presumably) harder part is cutting.

EXCEPT!!! You produce the device for a record pressing plant and they save all the chemicals and processes of copying (father, mother, son, daughter...)
What do you think?

I think of Capacitance Electronic Disks, and scanning tunnel microscopes. These employ simple ways to scan and playback a micro groove, a nano groove if wanted ... for some things.

[OptVox]

I think a laser scanning system for pressed records in conjunction with a DA converter is a better business idea. (Better than a laser cutter to be played with needles).
Especially when I think about how many people need a record player and how many need a lathe...
At the very least, the "laser-system" should be able to do both burning and reading - especially if the (presumably) harder part is cutting.

EXCEPT!!! You produce the device for a record pressing plant and they save all the chemicals and processes of copying (father, mother, son, daughter...)
What do you think?

I am ok with going with: vinyl records from lacquer masters, tapes , and optical holographic disks recorded with laser.

The more complex processes like mecanical engraving with laser is possible; and is true it raises environmental concerns. Yet, it can be done safely with the right gear, by the right staff.

Audio recording is audio recording. New tools are new tools. There is no need to get rid of the old ones.

I think there are universal methods and tools that should be preserved, cultivated and enjoyed. And when we find a new one we just incorporate it.

How about a machine with two arms, one mechanical and one optical for either kind of disks...
.

[OptVox]

I think a laser scanning system for pressed records in conjunction with a DA converter is a better business idea. (Better than a laser cutter to be played with needles).
Especially when I think about how many people need a record player and how many need a lathe...
At the very least, the "laser-system" should be able to do both burning and reading - especially if the (presumably) harder part is cutting.

EXCEPT!!! You produce the device for a record pressing plant and they save all the chemicals and processes of copying (father, mother, son, daughter...)
What do you think?

Some photo-resins like ink-photopolymer, and gum dichromate are able to develope relief impressions of a few microns high ... around 20 microns, or enough to accomadate an LP's needle. The photopolymer is first extended in a glass plate, then recorded and developed like a photography, and electroplated to obtain a 'mother' ...

Or you can go all optical.

The chemicals, etc. are a concern always but is not a capital limitation. There are simple ways of dealing with it, and is actually minimal compared to other processes.