New Pitch Computer

[blacknwhite]

Can you give me some specific examples of hardware I can test on? Headshells/Cartridges/Turntables??? Will be some time before I would get to that point. But, if I had an idea as to what to track down in the meantime I could test appropriately down the road.

THANKS opcode66.

The most popular cartridge used for restoration of the oldest microgroove players, namely the 1950's - early 1960's vacuum tube players, is a combination stylus-and-ceramic-cartridge (inseparable), the stereo-compatible Astatic 89t. These are stereo-compliant, mono-output, cartridge-stylus "bullets", used in all the 1960s-70s-early 80s school record players. The classroom players which use them turn up regularly on eBay under the brand names "Audiotronics", "Califone", and "Newcomb": Youtube examples:

Newcomb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRVVItDEcxY

Audiotronics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0zL60UHeDA

Califone:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Hbe2jHPEKVI/default.jpg

A *good* one of these Astatic 89t pickups, installed in a working one of these school-type players, is representative of pretty much all restored vintage record players & jukeboxes out there. The problem these days is, there's a new flood of sub-par-quality 89t's. The way to tell if yours is "decent quality" or not (in terms of compliance) is with the most common of the Shure Trackability Test Records, the "audio obstacle course - era III" version of the record, from 1973, also easy to find on eBay for about $15 or so with shipping:



To see copies of it currently on eBay, use search string "audio obstac*" & look for that jacket design.

On the "bass drum test" on side one, track 5, there are 5 increasingly loud (incidentally Mono) repeats of a single bass drum hit, at increasing dB levels noted on the jacket. A well-adjusted vintage phono, or Newcomb / Audiotronics / Califone classroom player, should make it through bass drum hit #3 without skipping. Bass drum hit #4 plays on a very few of my restored vintage phono's without skipping; hit #5 won't play on any of them, but the jacket states that only the best magnetic pickups (as of 1973) will track #5, and you can just Look at the groove for #5, and see it's "crazy". They don't cut any deeper on the louder bass hits, since the point of the record is to challenge the tracking abilities of a pickup, not to "make it easy".

Of course, if the bass drum hits #4 and #5 on the audio obstacle course LP were cut DEEPER, they might have played OK; my vintage players actually play many deep-groove rap & club singles OK.... Thus, the point of requesting that your pitch-and-depth computer go deep on real loud bass, i.e. as loud as Hits #4 and #5 on the above test record...

Hope this helps. Let me know if and when you are getting closer to actually doing this. I don't have any "spare players hanging around" right now, but I do from time to time, maybe I could set you up with a "long-term loaner" calibrated to be able to withstand up through Bass Hit #3, that you could use as a test machine, if you haven't already got one by then... I really appreciate your taking this into consideration, and would like to make it as un-complicated as possible for you to get ahold of a "vintage-representative" test machine if and when you are Ready To Go...

- Bob

[mossboss]

Hey Bob and others
I got a few questions
What did we do before depth control?
How was this obstacle course record cut?
On what was it cut?
Oh Depth control, alright than, lets get one on every lathe
Bullshit
Come on now, it is a case of cutters not knowing the game mate and no depth computer control or anything else for that matter would ever substitute knowledge experience and appreciation of the fine art of cutting and pressing a record
You can see it here on this very forum and any other one as well with questions asked by people with a wilson gay piece of junk and a year or two later they are on a VMS doing cuts for the industry
Or the other thing is these people who buy a vinyl press set it up and wholla they are pressing records for people
Fitters and turners Fit a piece of vinyl on the press and turn it into crap that is
No offence to any one but lets get it right and identify the issues which is something you have done all along in many post's of yours
You can give any one the best tools available in the whole world for a job and he will turn the job into shit and blame his tools
I just want to make sure that at least you out of all Bob, you dont loose sight of the bunny
It is the craftsman and not the tools which will allways deliver results

I will leave it at that
Cheers

[Nickou]

Hi Flo,


But as Flo also clearly pointed out, Zuma and Pitch98 have been developed for 10 - 12 years. It will take me some time to even get a Beta 1 going. And, of course I would have revisions as well. Thinking that incorporting USB jack would make flash updates a sinch. You could pay a nominal charge for me to send an update on a USB Flash Drive. Insert the USB Drive into the USB jack on the box. Then watch the LCD panel as it confirms the update and then proceeds. Not sure what the procedure for updating the Zuma or Pitch98 is????

Thanks for the continued input and interest.

The procedure is extremely simple : JVO send you a new chip with the last OS . So you only have to change the old one by the new one ...
JVO never ask me any money for that. I beleive he considers than if you bought the ultrapitch , you also bought the updates.

[opcode66]

Ok, I see. I guess I'm a little surprised that chips are sent out. They can be damages so easily by not handling them correctly. Touch one of the legs and that can be it. Static electricity ruins the chips.

I can see someone messing up a chip if they don't know how to ground themselves when pulling out the old and putting in the new. Or when putting in the new chip a leg could easily get messed up if not inserted correctly. Still think a USB Flash Drive containing the updates would be the way to go.

Yann, you make a good point. If one purchases the product, they should get the updates free as part of the deal. I could live with that.

[blacknwhite]

Hey Bob and others
I got a few questions
What did we do before depth control?
...
Oh Depth control, alright than, lets get one on every lathe
Bullshit

I don't mean for this to turn into a war of "my lathe is better than yours because mine has depth control and yours doesn't"...

[EDIT] I agree you are right, it depends on the craftsman.

You asked what we did before depth control... A rhetorical question I know, since I know you know the answer, but for anyone else who cares...

for popular releases which were made to be played on all kinds of record players (i.e. non-Classical-Audiophile releases), in order to prevent record players of the day from skipping on strong bass notes, without depth control, they used heavy bass compression / limiting. A most extreme example of this can be seen on original 1960's Motown 45's, but there are plenty of threads on the internet complaining about how motown 45s were engineered to sound good on cheap AM car radios when played over the air, so no need to go into that here.

Obviously, while SOME limit has to be set to how much bass goes on a record , you can't do as much bass compression/limiting as was done "back in the day" because that goes against "good modern audio engineering principles" of maximizing dynamic range.

Instead, I was requesting, that if someone is going through the trouble of creating code for a pitch computer, to offer these capabilities For Anyone Who Makes a Conscious Decision to Cut Vinyl Compatible with Older Players: the capability to either (1) space grooves with strong bass further apart, or, if depth control is available on the lathe, (2) cut deeper on bass [which will also naturally requires more spaced-out groove pitch].

My reasoning is, since everyone these days has such an aversion to any kind of audible compression / limiting of dynamics, this might offer a "compromise" to keep some of the bass dynamics, but make accomodations for non-magnetic-pickup players.

But I know, that this will ALWAYS lead to fights, of "making records for Everyone to Enjoy" vs. "Making records for the Least Common Denominator of Idiots using Outdated Players"... so, "whatever"... there it is, take it or leave it...

- Bob

[opcode66]

I would want to build in a lot of user tweakable settings. So, someone like Bob could tweak their unit via an LCD interface panel and some buttons. Or, you could use the standard settings. That way, everyone is happy.

Also, rethinking updates... I could post an update file to a web site. You could download the file to a USB Flash drive and then insert the drive into the USB jack on the box. The box uses the file on the USB Flash drive to update the chip inside. That would be very simple and free.

[flozki]

most "decent" pitch systems automatically controll the min depth.. and you can choose the absolut min depth of groove.
so i think with every pitch system aligned correctly you had always a groove thats deep enough... i think more problems are the different tonarme resonances...

about sending pic chips. i use to do lectures from time to time for absolute non electronic people (most even dont know the difference of a capacitor and a resistor...) with chips, pics and more and i never ever saw a pic going bad because of touching handling..static charge or so..they are just quite good protected..
ok maybe wrong polarity... but i guess customers for such a thing know how to change a chip...

good luck with your development....

[opcode66]

@Flo. When I first started working with pics I would pull them out of socked and seat them in my programmer in order to update the code. I had a few chips go bad just from accidentally touching the legs without wearing a static electricity dissipater.

I switched to programming via ICSP and never had the problem again.

I order my chips from Microchip.com.

Don't know how to account for them going bad other than static charge.

I appreciate your encouragement and insight. Thanks.

[Aussie0zborn]

I feel a new pitch computer coming on. If you can do it, go for it. We look forward to seeing the prototype. All the best.

[leo gonzalez]

Instead, I was requesting, that if someone is going through the trouble of creating code for a pitch computer, to offer these capabilities For Anyone Who Makes a Conscious Decision to Cut Vinyl Compatible with Older Players: the capability to either (1) space grooves with strong bass further apart, or, if depth control is available on the lathe, (2) cut deeper on bass [which will also naturally requires more spaced-out groove pitch].

- Bob

and since you're there planning a pitch-depth computer, make it phase conscious.

didn't neumann develop a phase-aware computer in 80's?

would be nice to have some previewing of in-phase and out-of-phase content, but mainly for depth i guess...

i've been rubbing my head listening to this:
http://www.discogs.com/David-Bowie-Aladdin-Sane-/release/1903236

to my ears, the summum of mono-stereo balance, tone, fatness...

when did the zuma come out, during the 80's, right?

leo.

[leo gonzalez]

for popular releases which were made to be played on all kinds of record players (i.e. non-Classical-Audiophile releases), in order to prevent record players of the day from skipping on strong bass notes, without depth control, they used heavy bass compression / limiting.
- Bob

correct me if i am wrong, but i think you will find today's skips coming from head lifts (vertical) more than on extreme (lateral) excursions.

yesterdays mixing and production was dedicated to vinyl, but nowadays? itunes sound enhancer turned "on"?

you can offer the client a flat freq. response cut, but what about a "flat phase mirror image" with today's understanding of stereo. looks like it's getting more and more extreme.

the last radiohead one for example... pure dizziness... which is cool, but how do you transfer that intention on some of the songs to vinyl?

i think todays compromise might be shifting more towards the "stereo" issue than on "levels" one.

there's people cutting techno tracks now fully mono and leaving stereo behind, and also cut very loud...

leo

[Nickou]

yesterdays mixing and production was dedicated to vinyl, but nowadays? itunes sound enhancer turned "on"?

you can offer the client a flat freq. response cut, but what about a "flat phase mirror image" with today's understanding of stereo. looks like it's getting more and more extreme.

the last radiohead one for example... pure dizziness... which is cool, but how do you transfer that intention on some of the songs to vinyl?

i think todays compromise might be shifting more towards the "stereo" issue than on "levels" one.


leo

Yes and no ... depends ... the ultrapitch is programed to have a minimum deph groove , you can choose this parameter . in my setup , if the basic deph is 70um , it will never go under 68 um.

so before using a stereo filter in the low frequencies , i do a test cut .
The ultrapich will never brake this law : the min deph will be 2 um under the basic deph .

I don t think modern pop music gives more problems than clasical music (using the ultrapich ..) ,I would say probably less.



I cut regulary electro acustic music , with high frequencies , full of out of phase etc ... Do I have to kill the music thinking about the trackability of the groove in a poor turntable ? my answer is no :I don t buy vinyl records for the sleeve or the object , but for the sound.

In my studio , I have 3 turntables : the neumann , a technics 1200 and a 150 euros turntable .
And I can read almost all my records wih out any problems ... so ...
it is totaly possible to cut a 80Hz 180 degree out of phase and read it correctly using a good pich / deph controler and a decent turntable

From my point of view , the finality is how the music will sound , not if the record will be readeble on a turn table built during the 50's ...


And if the cutting houses begin to think in this way : trackability in poor turtables , I don t see the interest of vinyl : we already have mp3 or other poor sounding medium ...

another point:
the problem of the medium is not the problem of the musician , it is the problem of the guy who will cut the laquers .
I am musician , and when I do music , I don t think vinyl or tackability , I think music . The same when I cut a record : music , of course ... with all the aspect of a vinyl records , but the most important is the music.

And probably it is not so easy to cut , for example , the last radiohead . But it is totaly possible with out killing any thing of the music , i don t see where there is a problem

of course , to do that , you will need a very good setup and powerfull pitch control ... the ultrapitch for example.

another point :
the price of the ultrapitch
knowing the quality of the services of JVO , it is not cheap , it is not expensive , it is the right price.
Sean davis is building a analog picth deph controler , I heard than the price is around 10 000 euros , in this case , yes , it is expansive.

Another detail about the price : this system is not a beta version , it works perfectly and gives results you can only have with a VMS 80 ...!

between the vms 66 and the vms 80 , there is 14 years ... it tooks to neumann gmbh 14 years of developement to build this new pict control !!!

for the ultrapitch , JVO is still working on it ... 12 years !

A turntable motor with a pic controler is a good project for any owner of a AMxx .

[blacknwhite]

From my point of view , the finality is how the music will sound , not if the record will be readebale on a turn table built during the 50's ...

And if the cutting houses begin to think in this way : trackability in poor turtables , I don t see the interest of vinyl : we already have mp3 or other poor sounding medium ...

I am specifically talking about 1950s-70s (Vintage) styles, to be cut compatible with Vintage players, because Vintage-style music on vinyl, from my point of view, is purchased from people who like Vintage STUFF, including Vintage Players.

[EDIT] MOST NEW RELEASES of vintage 1950s-70s styles ALREADY PLAY FINE ON VINTAGE PLAYERS; I'm just talking about possible options for "improving the odds" for the "vintage crowd". One way would be to have this option available on a pitch computer.

Yes, these are 2 different points of view: Why do people buy records? For finality (technical accuracy) of the sound, or for the "in-describable vinyl experience" of playing it on a record player?

For everyone I know who likes the vintage 1950s-early 70s styles, it is mainly for the EXPERIENCE: The warm glow and smell of the vacuum tubes cooking, the "clanking" of the original 1950s-70s record changer as it changes to the next record, the distorted POPPING sound of the needle dropping into the first groove, the "warm" distorted sound of the tube-and-transformer audio path of the vintage amplifier.

If the only thing people wanted was TECHNICALLY PURE SOUND PATH, why do so many guitarists play through DISTORTED TUBE AMPS?

Because it's ART. Its NOT a purely technical matter; it's ART. It's an AESTHETIC. That aesthetic is DIFFERENT for 1950s-early 70s styles, than it is for Techno / Electronic / Noise-Rock.

Cutters need to UNDERSTAND the AUDIENCE, the people buying these records and paying the bills, for 1950s-70s styles.

There are 2 different camps. 2 different types of customers.

Individual cutters will decide what they will do...

[Nickou]

I don t see the relationschip between the sound of a tube guitare amp and the problem of trackability of grooves with a poor or old turntable .

the subject of this topic is to know if we need a new pitch control .

to do that, I mean cutting at low level ,in mono ,a big fat groove , we don t need nothing new. But you'r right when you mention this reality , probably the solution is in between ...

[opcode66]

@Yann... Please don't be so hard on a system that is in the planning stages. I don't make comments about records that you have yet to cut...

I am a harware designer. I have designed and built many projects. For sure I would never let a design out if it had not been thoroughly unit tested and functional. I would never sell a design that you or anyone else would waste lacquers on. But, thanks for assuming that I would.

And, how else would I come up with the ideas for a new system without discussing them. In your world, do new designs for new products fall out of the sky with no descussion or planning? In my world, discussion and careful planning is how I go from nothing to something. Don't be jerk for no reason. Don't be so dismissive for no reason. What if I come up with a better design than anything that currently exists? You don't know me. You don't know what I'm capable of.

Yes, yes it took eveyone else a long time. But, I can leverage their knowledge. A lot of this is well documented. And, I'm not working with solid state technology! Duh! Be a lot easier to work on this these days then it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

No worries. When completed, you certainly don't have to buy one. Thanks for being so supportive of a colleague!

I would be happy to work on a better motor control system. But, pitch/depth is what I would like to study and work on first. Please keep productive input flowing.

[opcode66]

Pulled out a spare 16F887. Started writing some code. I am now interpretting audio at 10 bits. I'm ordering a 24 bit ADC that uses I2C for communication.

So, I can now read the intensity of audio at a discrete moment in time and store it. Soon I will be able to interpret audio at very high precision (24 bit).

Since I am working on a lot of other projects I can't dedicate myself to the pitch computer. But, I am making progress. Will keep you all posted.

[dietrich10]

keep on it when you have time

[gold]

So, I can now read the intensity of audio at a discrete moment in time and store it. Soon I will be able to interpret audio at very high precision (24 bit).

Do you plan on programming the computer for 144dB of pitch and depth correction? The stock Neumann VMS70 system can do about 6dB.

[opcode66]

Do you plan on programming the computer for 144dB of pitch and depth correction? The stock Neumann VMS70 system can do about 6dB.

Are you saying that the stock computer only senses from -6db to 0db? If so, then I would take that to mean will I be more sensitive to much lower volumes than the VMS70 pitch computer? The answer would be yes.

I will admit I don't know everything yet. I am still learning. And, I don't even have my lathe from Al yet. So, a lot of what I'm doing at this point is exploratory. Any input, advice or suggestions over the next year for me on this project would be really appreciated!

Once I get a working picth computer I want to try working on a high pole brushless dc motor controller for a washing machine motor to replace the stock VMS70 platter motor. Possibly even create a device that could be installed and would replace the need to swap out programming boxes for different size lacquers and speeds.

[gold]

Are you saying that the stock computer only senses from -6db to 0db? If so, then I would take that to mean will I be more sensitive to much lower volumes than the VMS70 pitch computer? .

What I said actually confuses two issues. Dynamic range and modulation offset. I would suggest researching how these systems work more closely before diving in and designing a better mouse trap. The engineers who designed these systems weren't stupid.