Vinylium or Vinyl Recorder?
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Vinlyomaniac
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:52 pm
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Vinlyomaniac
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 3:52 pm
Why do people prefer the Kingston? I've seen and heard the Vinyl recorder (which is half the price) and been extremely impressed, and the styli for it are 1/3 the price of Vinyliums and Souri will resharpen them for half price. And it seems a lot heavier duty. I guess the major downside is that it won't accept a standard needle for cutting lacquers for plating.
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com
I have never listened to the Kingston.
And Flo, all due respect, but...
As far as reading the forum goes... I have, almost every page of every post on here. And it took months, not an hour or two. There are almost 10,000 posts on here at this point.
I know "use the Search Function!" is the standard thread response to any question that might have been asked and answered in the last 5 years around here, but the search function is almost completely useless for pinpointing information. It brings up every single thread that has any of the key words and does not recognize boolean search strings. And half the time questions get answered in threads with titles unrelated to the question that eventually gets asked/answered 5 pages in.
I've seen people choose a side, but I've never actually seen anyone discuss in depth why one is better than the other.
Perhaps a thread called "Vinylium vs. Vinyl recorder" is not the appropriate place to ask such a question and expect a thoughtful answer?
It's much better to let it devolve into an offtopic flame-war and continue to be a thread about Hitler, Airports, and Gaza. I was only trying get it back on topic so that perhaps someone who has experience with both could ignore the previous hijacking and answer the question that I, and I'm sure others, would really like to know, in a rare post whose title tells you EXACTLY and SUCCINCTLY what should be covered in it!
And Flo, all due respect, but...
As far as reading the forum goes... I have, almost every page of every post on here. And it took months, not an hour or two. There are almost 10,000 posts on here at this point.
I know "use the Search Function!" is the standard thread response to any question that might have been asked and answered in the last 5 years around here, but the search function is almost completely useless for pinpointing information. It brings up every single thread that has any of the key words and does not recognize boolean search strings. And half the time questions get answered in threads with titles unrelated to the question that eventually gets asked/answered 5 pages in.
I've seen people choose a side, but I've never actually seen anyone discuss in depth why one is better than the other.
Perhaps a thread called "Vinylium vs. Vinyl recorder" is not the appropriate place to ask such a question and expect a thoughtful answer?
It's much better to let it devolve into an offtopic flame-war and continue to be a thread about Hitler, Airports, and Gaza. I was only trying get it back on topic so that perhaps someone who has experience with both could ignore the previous hijacking and answer the question that I, and I'm sure others, would really like to know, in a rare post whose title tells you EXACTLY and SUCCINCTLY what should be covered in it!
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com
You probably know this but anyway...
after typing all the keywords in the "search" box you choose "Search for all terms" option and you get exactly what you are searching for.
here are two results:
Souri's "vinylrecorder" machine
https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1167&highlight=vinylium+vinylrecorder&mforum=lathetrolls
Vinylium - what do you get for your money?
https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1558&highlight=vinylium+vinylrecorder&mforum=lathetrolls
after typing all the keywords in the "search" box you choose "Search for all terms" option and you get exactly what you are searching for.
here are two results:
Souri's "vinylrecorder" machine
https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1167&highlight=vinylium+vinylrecorder&mforum=lathetrolls
Vinylium - what do you get for your money?
https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1558&highlight=vinylium+vinylrecorder&mforum=lathetrolls
I suggest asking each for a test cut. Souri will do this for you for free. Vinulium will charge you for it.
In my opinion, sonically, they can produce very similar cuts. Vinylium is a plug and play system. Not much you need to set or calibrate. Fairly small system (amp rack, overhead mechanism, cutterhead).
Vinylrecorder has a lot more user tweakable settings. It gives you more control which means you can screw things up pretty good if you don't know what you are doing. But if you do konw what you are doing you can tweak each cut to your liking more than you could with the standard vinylium system.
Both standard systems have one huge issue! Wow and flutter. Both standard systems depend on a 1210 turntable with a replaced resistor for increased torque. However, the torque is really not substantial. The pressure you have to use to cut into the lexan/acetates will cause a flutter in the speed of the turning disc if you do not have enough torque applied. So, the end result is a fluctuation is the pitch of the sounds being cut. That means that sustained piano chords will sound modulated instead of smooth. Also, if you are cutting electronic music, whatever DJ will play the record will hate you. The BPM will constantly shift on a record cut in this fashion.
With either system, you need a lathe body of some kind to connect the cutterhead to. For instance you could buy a Presto 6N or an 8 that has a nice heavy platter, descent bearing, and a lot of torque. You can put the cutterhead from either system on a lathe body and use the fixed pitch feedscrew overhead mechnism to drive it across the platter. You would no longer have the computer controlled variable pitch grooving that you would using the overhead mechanics provided by Vinylium or Vinylrecorder. But, you would have a platter that would not give you severe wow or flutter.
Also, with Vinylrecorder, after you have purchased the initial system and used it for a while you can upgrade. Souri sells a heavy platter and precise high torque external motor system. You can put the heavy platter on your 1210 and attach it to the external motor via a belt. The external motor replaces the motor in the 1210. The 1210 is essentially just used as a base and a bearing for the platter.
I reviewed both systems and got test cuts. I liked both. But, Souri wont let you buy a full system up front. You have to wait to get the upgrades required to make professional cuts. Also, his system does not accept a standard saphire or ruby needle and can thus never be used on acetates. You can only cut plastic with Vinylrecorded. Not a problem if you never want to have anything plated and pressed.
Vinylium can cut both acetate and plastic. But, if you are using a 1210 and not some kind of a lathe base then you could only cut a maximum of a 12" acetate. Which means that if you want to plate and press a record you could only do a 10" since the plant needs two inches of empty space at the edge. I.E. if you want to make a 12" record you have to cut into a 14" acetate.
In the end I've decided to purchase a VMS70 system. In the future I will likely purchase a basic Vinylrecorder system or one of the cutterheads being developed by Flokzi. I will use that head to cut platic on the VMS70 platter. I will use the sx head it comes with to cut acetates. Spending a lot more than either Vinylium or Vinylrecorder, but will have a full cutting shop.
In my opinion, sonically, they can produce very similar cuts. Vinylium is a plug and play system. Not much you need to set or calibrate. Fairly small system (amp rack, overhead mechanism, cutterhead).
Vinylrecorder has a lot more user tweakable settings. It gives you more control which means you can screw things up pretty good if you don't know what you are doing. But if you do konw what you are doing you can tweak each cut to your liking more than you could with the standard vinylium system.
Both standard systems have one huge issue! Wow and flutter. Both standard systems depend on a 1210 turntable with a replaced resistor for increased torque. However, the torque is really not substantial. The pressure you have to use to cut into the lexan/acetates will cause a flutter in the speed of the turning disc if you do not have enough torque applied. So, the end result is a fluctuation is the pitch of the sounds being cut. That means that sustained piano chords will sound modulated instead of smooth. Also, if you are cutting electronic music, whatever DJ will play the record will hate you. The BPM will constantly shift on a record cut in this fashion.
With either system, you need a lathe body of some kind to connect the cutterhead to. For instance you could buy a Presto 6N or an 8 that has a nice heavy platter, descent bearing, and a lot of torque. You can put the cutterhead from either system on a lathe body and use the fixed pitch feedscrew overhead mechnism to drive it across the platter. You would no longer have the computer controlled variable pitch grooving that you would using the overhead mechanics provided by Vinylium or Vinylrecorder. But, you would have a platter that would not give you severe wow or flutter.
Also, with Vinylrecorder, after you have purchased the initial system and used it for a while you can upgrade. Souri sells a heavy platter and precise high torque external motor system. You can put the heavy platter on your 1210 and attach it to the external motor via a belt. The external motor replaces the motor in the 1210. The 1210 is essentially just used as a base and a bearing for the platter.
I reviewed both systems and got test cuts. I liked both. But, Souri wont let you buy a full system up front. You have to wait to get the upgrades required to make professional cuts. Also, his system does not accept a standard saphire or ruby needle and can thus never be used on acetates. You can only cut plastic with Vinylrecorded. Not a problem if you never want to have anything plated and pressed.
Vinylium can cut both acetate and plastic. But, if you are using a 1210 and not some kind of a lathe base then you could only cut a maximum of a 12" acetate. Which means that if you want to plate and press a record you could only do a 10" since the plant needs two inches of empty space at the edge. I.E. if you want to make a 12" record you have to cut into a 14" acetate.
In the end I've decided to purchase a VMS70 system. In the future I will likely purchase a basic Vinylrecorder system or one of the cutterheads being developed by Flokzi. I will use that head to cut platic on the VMS70 platter. I will use the sx head it comes with to cut acetates. Spending a lot more than either Vinylium or Vinylrecorder, but will have a full cutting shop.
Some people are doing mastering with the sc99 , so ,with out knowing it , probably you listened some records which have been recorded using this system .
If you think there is not enough power , you still have the possibility to buy a minicut with a power amplifier of your choice .
definitively, the KINGSTON dub plate cutter is THE machine .
And Stuka / Vinylium is THE team to work with.
If you think there is not enough power , you still have the possibility to buy a minicut with a power amplifier of your choice .
definitively, the KINGSTON dub plate cutter is THE machine .
And Stuka / Vinylium is THE team to work with.
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TotalSonic
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:08 pm
- Contact:
It's pretty pathetic that it's such a seller's market that the customer service for both these places can either be very long in getting back to simple communications - or can be persnickety in deciding who "deserves" to purchase their products. I'd say whoever can offer a comparable product that is actually hungry to do something more than occasional business would do pretty well considering the demand I see around places like this. I'd say they most likely have to contract a Chinese shop for the main parts and then just do final assemblies and quality control themselves to put it at a price point that would make sense though.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Cutting gear
Well I do not think that any chinese shop would bother with around 100 odd machines that people are likely to buy if thatTotalSonic wrote: I'd say they most likely have to contract a Chinese shop for the main parts and then just do final assemblies and quality control themselves to put it at a price point that would make sense though.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
It does seem like a lot of interest is there but even Neumann at the height of the vinyl game ever made less than 1000 cutting heads in the 68-74 series and may I say a lot less lathes as quite a few shops had more than 1 head, besides a lot of 68's where shelved once the 74 was introduced
So I would have thought that even with a great surge in interest it may get up to 200 as a wild guess but even that does not qualify it for mass production by any ones standard
Given the development time associated costs etc The prices are reasonable even by comparison to any used VMS or any other 30-40 yo machine
The marketing bit?
If it wasnt for these few guys doing it there would not be anything apart from the ill fated Vestax whos market reasearch director would most likely is still looking for a job
Sure enough people are complaining about sales support service etc but there is no way known that for the effort required to make these things one cannot make a living out of the sales generated or could be had even if all the sales went to only one maker
I suppose with all the consumer bullshit that goes on today, people's demands for such a specialised field may not be satisfied resulting in a lawsuit which is most likely the reason of the screening process that seems to be the modus operandi
Who would want that kind of life dealing with someone who thinks it is plug and play like a CD burner
The amount of people who fell for Mikes 1st of April fools joke "Vinyl Burner" last year is a fair indication of people lurking on this forum with that very attitude which no doubt would take this kind of step if the machine does not do it for them
And Steve
You let the Chinese into this and you can also kiss your cutting days good bye as well as any one else who does this
These people are tenacious efficient hard working and no time issues as to how long it takes
Besides they will work for a bowl of rice with a few slivers of meat on top not an 18 Oz prime rib of beef
You only have to look around your own back yard to confirm that and if that does not convince you find the US of A manufactured goods against Chinese made goods any where you go shopping mate
Arghhhhhhhhh
Cheers
"The Vinyl Truth"
Chris
Chris
Re: Cutting gear
Souri claims he is a millionaire in USD and by the end of this year will also be in Euros. So, sounds like he does ok. He has probably sold at least 50 systems in the last year.that for the effort required to make these things one cannot make a living out of the sales generated
Souri also claims that they produce the machines in-house. They do not farm out the work to China. And even if they wanted to I'm sure they could. A good lot of the machine is stamped and lathed metal parts. Any shop could make a lot of them. Not the cutterhead, but the rest of the machine for sure could be farmed out. Even in small numbers.
To me it's pretty simple.
I have a Vinylrecorder and a VMS70. the quality is obvious. however saying that, the VC is the ONLY lathe available at this time that is set up for small business. I have been cutting on mine for six years or so. Yes it is hard. I use it pretty much everyday. I have cut THOUSANDS of Souri dubs, many of them BRILLIANT. (Not as brilliant as if I had cut them with my Neumann on lacquer) but brilliant none the less. the material is very good, the service can be great at times. The head is very good for the price...and cheap to repair if you are clumsy enough to blow it (twice...ehem).
Stylus life can vary greatly. Today I put a new stylus on the head and cut the sound of a movie over 4 sides, total of 90 mins. very low volume (obvioulsy..) no errors, perfect result..... HOWEVER, after finishing I checked the stylus and it had already been damaged! This is a common problem. I then had to replace it with my older stylus that had cut over 100 records. some last for ever, some last for hours...
The upside is the price and how much you will learn using it as well as the fact that if you can find the customers you can make a comfortable living cutting records. I doubt if that is possible with a Kingston as any customers specifically wanting acetates would go to a studio with a Neumann.
Downsides... well there are several and people on this forum have spoken about them enough.
I have a Vinylrecorder and a VMS70. the quality is obvious. however saying that, the VC is the ONLY lathe available at this time that is set up for small business. I have been cutting on mine for six years or so. Yes it is hard. I use it pretty much everyday. I have cut THOUSANDS of Souri dubs, many of them BRILLIANT. (Not as brilliant as if I had cut them with my Neumann on lacquer) but brilliant none the less. the material is very good, the service can be great at times. The head is very good for the price...and cheap to repair if you are clumsy enough to blow it (twice...ehem).
Stylus life can vary greatly. Today I put a new stylus on the head and cut the sound of a movie over 4 sides, total of 90 mins. very low volume (obvioulsy..) no errors, perfect result..... HOWEVER, after finishing I checked the stylus and it had already been damaged! This is a common problem. I then had to replace it with my older stylus that had cut over 100 records. some last for ever, some last for hours...
The upside is the price and how much you will learn using it as well as the fact that if you can find the customers you can make a comfortable living cutting records. I doubt if that is possible with a Kingston as any customers specifically wanting acetates would go to a studio with a Neumann.
Downsides... well there are several and people on this forum have spoken about them enough.
it is definitely possible.. with way better sound.
i know a few people cutting only polycarbonate with kingston cutter
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU[/url]
you just need your own blanks.
they are opensource.
or vinylike.com or some other suppliers on this forum.
diamond. already 3 resources and more to come. price of diamonds seems reasonable with the announced solutions...
and i am sure you can do your own steel or hard steel cutting styli.
the downside is the limited torque of sp1200/1210. this is why it was long time not recommended by vinylium. but get an sp10 and you are on the save side.
i know a few people cutting only polycarbonate with kingston cutter
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU[/url]
you just need your own blanks.
they are opensource.
or vinylike.com or some other suppliers on this forum.
diamond. already 3 resources and more to come. price of diamonds seems reasonable with the announced solutions...
and i am sure you can do your own steel or hard steel cutting styli.
the downside is the limited torque of sp1200/1210. this is why it was long time not recommended by vinylium. but get an sp10 and you are on the save side.
I'm not saying it is 'impossible'! After all, all we are doing is cutting records... All I am saying is that the VR is the only lathe specifically set up for durable cuts, considering the commercial market is so big for vinyl dubs as a one stop shop option it is by far the better choice. I know I would not be cutting records if it wasn't for that lathe.
Put it another way, how many people do you know of using a VR as a small business lathe? I could count 15 without going online and looking for them. On the other hand, how many people do you know of using a Kingston for small business purposes? Personally I don't know a single one. Am sure they are out there but I don't know them.
Put it another way, how many people do you know of using a VR as a small business lathe? I could count 15 without going online and looking for them. On the other hand, how many people do you know of using a Kingston for small business purposes? Personally I don't know a single one. Am sure they are out there but I don't know them.