Is stereo embossing possible?

[marchingband]

Greetings Trolls
I have combed the site for any info on embossing in stereo, but have come up relatively empty handed.
Has anyone succeeded at this task? If so would you be willing to share any details?

With the new stereo heads becoming available, this could be an exciting upgrade for those who love to emboss/impress!

thank you!!

[jesusfwrl]

The answer is surprisingly simple: It is possible to emboss a stereophonic groove on a blank, if using a suitable stylus in a suitable head.

HOWEVER: Due to mainly geometrical considerations, it is not possible to properly reproduce such a disk, with currently available reproduction equipment.

Furthermore, none of the commercially available stereophonic cutterheads will accept a commercially available embossing stylus.

There is a certain individual called Rich Flores, who has put in a significant amount of effort in doing just that. I am not up to date with his progress at present, but he did manufacture his own embossing styli to fit a Westrex 3D cutterhead and was embossing with this setup. I am not sure if he was embossing stereophonic information though. I also have no idea if he somehow managed to get around the geometric incompatibility issue for reproduction of stereophonically embossed disks.
In any case, he would be the most appropriate person to ask.

My own efforts have been very limited in this respect. I simply tried a few things out to confirm my theoretical understanding of the matter, which I did, and thus did not pursue this any further.
I mainly cut lacquer masters nowadays, but I did experiment with a variety of different techniques out of curiosity.

[tragwag]

also worth mentioning that peter king technically embosses stereo grooves using homemade stereo heads and sharpened victrola needles.

[jesusfwrl]

Indeed, I realised shortly after posting that I forgot to mention Peter King. He is also one of the nicest guys to talk to in this business, although he doesn't do internet, so you'll need to write a letter or give him a call.

With his method, there is still the issue of geometric incompatibility with common reproduction systems, especially audible on the vertical component.

[diamone]

I don't think this is the same thing exact,ly but I know a couple guys (neither of them on here) that have been trying to emboss on old CGS linear velocity discs with the lateral on one side and the vertical on the other side. If they had two embossers and mounted an e.g. Soundscriber vertical head on one and left the CGS lateral head on the other - or whether they tried a Cook/Livingston setup or what exactly I can't remember.

I do know the other guy was experimenting with a reversed Grey Audograph stylus awhile ago (remember they have a V shaped groove only on one side with a straight edge on the other as if somebody put a letter I in the center of a V and only used half) - and I know he had a local machinist make a double-pitch lead screw for it to make room for the other mirror image groove - but that was maybe 4-5 yrs ago and haven't talked to him or the other guy since.

I'll dig up their emails and see if I can re-initialize contact and get an update.

[jesusfwrl]

Sounds interesting. My comments were referring exclusively to the established 45/45 stereophonic microgroove system as commonly used and (almost) standardised to the present day.
It is of course entirely possible to use a variety of different non-standard methods to record sound mechanically onto different objects, and it will work, but will most likely not be compatible with a standard consumer turntable intended for 45/45 reproduction.

[diamone]

Remember though that embossing styli are never the same size or produce a groove in the same shape as a normal cutting styli - so playing back an embossed record on a normal turntable with a normal stylus is going to be only passable at best. Adding in constant linear recording (CGS/Grey Audograph/Memovox etc) just complicates matters.

[jesusfwrl]

Yes, that was exactly my point, along with the fact that it is not just stylus shape alone but also the plane of modulation and rake angle being different due to the common practice of tilting the cutterhead for embossing.

[meltingpotsound]

The answer is NO

I've worked on this for more than a year embossing variouse plastics and faceting two different cone tip angles for theWestrex cutter head stylus, 87 degrees and 90 degrees hoping to get a good stereo separation. It did not happened much to my surprise.

The good new is with the 87 degrees styli minus 4db from the standard 0 reference level at 7 cm, excellent audio you can actually A&B the playback and it's dam good.
The 90 degrees styli reproducing at -5db slightly less.

Different grades of polycarbonate can have more or less surface noise, CD's having the best results and Makrolon having more noise.
Rich Flores

[2bitcomputer]

@marchingband

I am interested in the fact that you were doing faceting -
Would you mind sharing what kind and size of lap you used and at what RPM?
And what material were you faceting?
Thanks...

[marchingband]

I am not sure what you mean by faceting ... can you clarify the question?

[2bitcomputer]

The faceting questions should have been @meltingpotsound

Faceting is the shaping and sharpening of the cutter stylus and I'm interested in sharpening my own stylus.
There is a lot of information out there about faceting rocks and gems but I haven't found much info on faceting diamonds.

[meltingpotsound]

No Way, Ive already tried it with my Westrex 3D cutter head using a hot stylus I fabricate and facet especially for embossing on polycarbonate discs. It always comes back in mono. http://www.lathe-cut-records.com

[meltingpotsound]

@marchingband

I am interested in the fact that you were doing faceting -
Would you mind sharing what kind and size of lap you used and at what RPM?
And what material were you faceting?
Thanks...

I will NEVER DISCLOSE that info !

[themagician]

Can we get a fresh weigh-in from @piaptk or anyone else knowledgable on embossing about this?

I've been able to emboss stereo on polycarbonate that is playable of standard 45 /45 turntables with a sapphire embossing cone using a hand made cutter head based off @grooveguy's design posted on this forum.

Granted the stereo image it's not very wide however the stereo content and separation is definitely present.

I'd like to know if others have been able to do this successfully as I'm still having some tracking issues and perhaps it's this stereo component causing it?

About to go emboss a mono lateral -12dB to +12dB 315Hz sine wave test, doubt I'll hit 0dB but I can try - wish me luck!
@ronnied_themagician

[farmersplow]

...

About to go emboss a mono lateral -12dB to +12dB 315Hz sine wave test, doubt I'll hit 0dB but I can try - wish me luck!
@ronnied_themagician

I wish you luck
Thomas

[South in Cuts]

Can we get a fresh weigh-in from @piaptk or anyone else knowledgable on embossing about this?

Hi. Interesting post!! I have already achieved some good results in stereo with pyramidal carbide needles. Cutting position and low weight.

I really liked the result, it's very spatial, right and left are well separated.

Here is an example of a result.


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wptv5ukknmk9pgbzxcisl/jb-stereo-4.mp3?rlkey=833ebjduuxawrjfx3aimh5sm8&st=xlf3xonn&dl=0

and here is a YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzx1BFrcYqI

[pentlandsound]

Very encouraging results, South in Cuts. I'm embossing on poly using the Presto sapphire, and have found that if circumstances are favourable, the recorded result can definitely come out 'wider than mono'. I'm hesitant to use the term 'stereo' as the effect I get is not really true stereo, but it does possess what I prefer to call 'spaciousness' in the sound. I think that the head is 'trying' to record stereo, but the groove geometry of embossed records perhaps does not allow for a full stereo field.

Some months ago I embossed a couple of EDM tracks, one of which had some out-of-phase signals which caused the embossing stylus to lift clear of the disc for an instant. On playback the stylus predictably jumped to the next groove.

Still0018_edm_liftout.png

I tried again, at a reduced level, and it was touch-and-go whether the playback jumped. On one deck it did, on others it didn't.

Still0019_edm_notOK.png

Finally I narrowed the stereo field, and this produced a playable record.

Still0020_edm_OK.png

Here's an audio extract from another record I embossed using the Presto stylus. The first half of the file is taken directly from the record; the second half, for comparison, is the same playback loaded to Audacity and mixed to mono.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S0FB2uLsBKhyc-6fqKO4_lUZZ5sWwLXm/view?usp=sharing
(Fair Use assumed, of short extract for demo purposes.)

David

[South in Cuts]

Very encouraging results, South in Cuts.

Hi David,

It's cool that there are more people taking risks to discover new things and push the limits of what's possible.

Thanks for the feedback, we're still fighting here.

I understand what you mean by "spaciousness". I can do this "spaciousness" with a pyramidal needle and a needle in the embossing position. However, I discovered that the needle in the cutting position means stereo is really stereo. I've already done all the tests with the goniometer and it's correct. Not as open as the original sound but open enough to see the stereo.

I advise you to find a song with well-defined stereos and then run your result through a goniometer (I use it in logic pro - native).

If you want, below you can find the song I used as a test. It's a song with well-defined stereos, especially at the beginning, which means you can do short, quick tests until you find the desired result.

If you need any help, you can call me without hesitation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUKXUlQ--YU

OBS:
I use a carbide needle and Petg but there is also a good result on the CD. I have never used polycarbonate as it is not my focus but I believe the result can be even better with PC.

Regarding your phase problem, I believe it is due to your equipment, I do not believe that reducing the volume will help to repair a problem like this. But I'm not very knowledgeable about this, I believe someone more qualified can help you with this. But I can also research and think of something to help you. Let's talk.

Cheers,
Rafael

[themagician]

Thanks so much for replies. Perhaps it's the weight that I'm embossing at.
Do you use a higher pressure on the stylus when pushing stereo or it is the same with mono content - either way how many grams are you all putting on the stylus?
I've got a digitally adjustable cutter head weight system and have hesitated to push it past 22.5g