Having trouble getting the 'Highs'

[PacManPlus]

Hello all!

I think I'm finally getting somewhere with my Polycarbonate/Ruby Stylus combination, but I still have one issue.

I got past the tracking issue (where the needle would not stay in the groove), and the surface noise issue (now using a heat lamp).
However, I still can't get the highs to come out; the sound is somewhat muffled.

I have the Laptop at the '60' percentile output, the EQ going from bottom to top in the low to high range, the amplifier about mid way. If I go any louder I start to get distortion.
Do I need to add a second EQ to boost the highs even more?

I would appreciate any suggestions, please - and thank you!
Bob

[markrob]

Hi,

You probably need more boost. A second EQ might do the trick. You could need as much as +35db of boost at the frequency extreme to get results. However, you will very likely need more amplifier power to be able to avoid clipping with this much boost. How much power are you using? I would go with at least 150 Watts. More if you can. If this is a home brew head, you may be up against its limits. If the moving mass of the head is too high, it will take too much power to accelerate the stylus to the needed levels such that you burn up the head before you get the highs where you would like them to be. You need to be very careful when running larger power amps into a head with lots of high frequency boost. The average power needs to be kept within the voice coil rating. But at the same time, you need tremendous peak power to deal with the highs. Start at very low cutting levels, use a in line fast blow fuse at about .5 amps and if possible monitor the AC voltage to the head with an analog voltmeter keeping the average voltage to the head in the 1-3 watt range (1 watt = 2,83 volts into 8 ohms). Hope this makes sense.

Mark

[PacManPlus]

Thank you for the reply!

The amp I am using is 100Wx2, and it takes 24 Volts in.
I will try boosting the highs some more first, thank you for the advice.

[paul92706]

Hi Pacman i had the same issue with my Presto Challenger. After cutting a record, and playing back the needle would skip continuously, i tried everything, realigning the head, trying different weight settings, adjusting the height of the overhead lathe , changing the ruby stylus, and it all narrowed down to bringing the bass all the way down. The bass must have caused the stylus to cutt very wide grooves. But anyhow my high's sound amazing, i am not using any EQ's or other processors, just the original tube amp, and it sounds amazingly clear. i hope you can get your problem situated. Also if i remember correctly, when i added to much weight to the head, i remember getting muffled sounds myself, check on your weight settings, for me 27.5grams seems to be working, what's your weight settings ?

[PacManPlus]

My weight settings are approx. 30 grams
I still need to try boosting the highs farther like the post above suggests... I need to take a file and boost the highs on a computer first before going through the normal route through the EQ and then AMP.

I just can't seem to get decent sound. I'm volleying between distortion and muffles sound.

I'll post back with the results of the above. Thanks everyone!!!
Bob

[piaptk]

What kind of cutting head are you using? A lot of low end heads max out at 8k. also has the head been serviced? Lots of models of heads (audax, presto 5c, radiotone, etc) have rubber around the armature that turns to cement and causes a muffled sound.

[paul92706]

What kind of cutting head are you using? A lot of low end heads max out at 8k. also has the head been serviced? Lots of models of heads (audax, presto 5c, radiotone, etc) have rubber around the armature that turns to cement and causes a muffled sound.

Ahh! this is a very good point piaptk!

[PacManPlus]

Sorry for the radio silence, guys... Work has been bogging me down. I'll get back to this soon...

[PacManPlus]

I'm about ready to give up. No matter what I do, what kind of stylus I get (I have steel, ruby, and diamond now), what angle the cutting head is at, what position the stylus is at, how loud/soft I have the amp, how light/heavy I have the cutting head... I can't get a decent sounding recording. I have polycarbonate sheets, blank records from Spinner Town Blanks, I've tried everything.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I'm getting to the point where maybe I'll just sell everything. I've been trying to do this for years now with no success.

[markrob]

Hi Bob,

Can you post samples of the source material and a capture of a cut? Just short 20 second wav file clips should be enough. Also the make and model of the amp? Is this a DIY head design ? If not, what head are you using?

Mark

[PacManPlus]

Thank you, Mark - I will do that over the next day or two.

[spinnertownblanks]

What Mark said. Post the head and amp model and we can look if it's as simple as it not being driven correctly, or whether it is a case of it being a vintage head which can't handle high frequencies.

It is likely easily resolved once we know full information

[PacManPlus]

For starters:

My source is a laptop running Linux Mint (Volume set at 60%), first going through a SONY SEQ-210 Amp (with the bass cut and treble boost going from low to high)
Going through this Amplifier: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C7C7GD9R (Volume on this is set to the half-way point)
Getting power from a 24 Watt Power Supply.

I am using this lathe (and he has been *very* responsive and has tried to help me as much as possible, but I can't just keep bugging him - as I posed above this is going on two years now). It *must* be something I'm doing as his output sounds really good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKh-UYDsvjQ

I've tried different angles, weights, stylus positions, I don't know what else to do. It's either distorted, too low, no highs (that's the only thing that stays constant), screeching surface noise, etc.
Here's a picture of my setup:

20250501_165925.jpg

I'll get a sample WAV asap.

Thank you again,
Bob

[markrob]

Hi,

The amp you are using is very under powered for your application. If your drivers are rated at 4 ohms, then then amp is only capable of delivering 50 W ave (100W peak as per the Amazon page). A 24 Vdc supply is the limiting factor here. If you head is 8 oms, the available power is 1/2 of that. I would think you would need something closer to 200 Watts ave (400 watts peak) or more. You would need a 48 Vdc power supply rated to deliver 20A (about 1000 watts) if running stereo. To reach a 400 watt peak power into 4 ohms, you need a peak current of 10 A for each channel: I = Sqrt(P/R). I think you would be best to source an self contained amp that can deliver the power specs you need. Stay away from Amazon/China junk. A good amp will cost, but its worth it.

Are you adding any additional EQ in the PC besides the Sony Eq shown? If not, then I don't think you have nearly enough high frequency boost. The IRIAA requires +13.7 dB at 10Khz vs the 1Khz. Looks like the Sony tops out at +10dB. Depending on the open loop head response, you might need as much as an additional +20db to correct for the head response or over +30dB boost total to get the highs going. That's why you need so much power as these extreme boosts need lots of short term peak power to get the stylus moving at high frequencies. The average power to the head is very low. Maybe 3 or 4 watts. But it takes lots of peak power to generate enough force to move the stylus as high frequencies. Given the huge reserve power, you have to be very careful to make sure you don't exceed the long term average power to the head or you will fry it. A 1/2A fast blow fuse is a good starting point.

Hope you find this helpful.

Mark

[spinnertownblanks]

Mark has explained this in good detail, but just letting you know I have personally EQ’d these heads before and it’s capable of very nice cuts.

You need a more powerful amp to drive it properly. Lots of people use a QSC GX3, or something similar.

My advice would be to get a suitable amp and follow this guide: https://spinnertownblanks.com/blogs/spinner-town-blog/how-to-map-and-eq-your-dynamic-cutterhead

Don’t give up, your set up is capable of good results once set up properly

[PacManPlus]

Good Morning, and thank you both VERY much for the advice... You guys are awesome!
Let me see what I can find regarding EQs/Amps/Power Supplies and I'll report back.

EDIT: To answer the above question, I was not adding any EQ on the laptop...

Thank you again,
Bob

[zdenek]

You should give more power to the amplifier and then you will achieve high frequencies, or you will burn the head, if it is amateur, it is not a big loss because you will make it again for a few dollars, but if it is a German head, i.e. a copy, clone or American WESTREX 3D [the best in my opinion because it has a lever, i.e. this adjustable support with a diamond ball]. Unfortunately, these American WESTREX companies are expensive and the cheapest I have seen [damaged on eBay] was $15,000. Unfortunately, I will not risk buying pseudo heads because I bought one German copy for $50, damaged and I think it is useless, it is worse than a head from Chinese vibrating speakers for $20 each, but the band of these heads is max 5 kHz and that's it. I think that all this equipment is either a luxury car for a million dollars Ferrari, Maserati or completely amateur devices such as INDIAN vehicles TATA from $1000 to $20000 are not suitable for professional mastering. That's how it looks in my opinion. Listen to this recording on DVD, I did not put in the noisy sound from a vinyl record, but the quality of the super CD recording is very good, even sensational, you can't even hear any noise, but it's an amateur recording, unfortunately ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH6vEflQz1M

[PacManPlus]

Hi guys -

So I picked up a used QSC GX3, and it's on it's way to me. Now it's just adding an equalizer plug in on my Linux box, and boosting the highs some more. I guess I should start with the amp about half way volume and see how that sounds.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Thank you all again,
Bob