Is it hard to find somebody with a Neumann VMS lathe to apprentice for?

[snoballin]

I'm sure out of everywhere on the internet, I figure this is the only place besides deep in a reddit subreddit, irl, or a gearslutz forum that someone that owns a Neumann VMS lathe (specifically either a 70 or an 80) would be. As a current record press operator, I'm reaching the stage when I really wanna dig deep and further my knowledge on the manufacturing process of records. I really want to learn to cut specifically on one of those, but I know finding a mastering engineer is pretty hard since the skill is so specialized. In a year or so, it'd be cool to find someone who could teach me how to use one, seeing if there's an engineer seeking an apprentice in the future that has one of these. Maybe one of ya'll is here.

[Phinster]

Best of luck with your search,I hope you find someone. Cutting is a dying art,needs to be passed on...

[mushroomjesus]

The reason no one “wants” to teach someone a Neumann VMS system has very little to do with ego and almost everything to do with risk, scarcity, and economics.

First: there are very few of these machines left that actually run every day. A working VMS-70 or VMS-80 is not like a guitar or a console—it is a fragile, multi-system ecosystem: lathe, cutter head, rack electronics, preview chain, pitch/depth computer, custom cabling, spare parts that no longer exist, and decades of undocumented hacks. If something breaks, you might lose weeks or months of work—or permanently lose a part that cannot be replaced. Letting a new person touch it is not “mentorship,” it is a financial and operational risk.

Second: the training cost is real. Teaching someone on a VMS is not like teaching Pro Tools. You are burning lacquers, styli, time, and reputation while someone learns. Every mistake costs money. Every bad cut risks a client. That is why historically, mastering houses trained people internally over many years, under contract, with loyalty expected in return. That world barely exists anymore.

Third: this is one of the last true craft bottlenecks in audio. Everyone can “master,” everyone can “produce,” everyone can “cut dubs.” But very few people can run a legacy pressing-grade lathe system properly. That scarcity is what keeps certain rooms alive. Training a stranger is literally training your future competition in a shrinking market. There is no moral incentive to do that—only sentimental ones.

Fourth: most of the people who still run these systems did not “get taught” in the romantic sense. They:

Inherited a room

Bought a broken system and fixed it

Learned by destroying material and eating the cost

Got trained under non-disclosure, non-compete, or internal-only conditions

So when you say: “Your best bet is to buy a lathe for $60k and learn yourself,” that is historically accurate. That is how almost every modern cutter who isn’t legacy-staff learned. Not because people are evil—because the machine, the market, and the economics force secrecy.

And the final uncomfortable truth:
There is no formal ladder anymore. No school. No guild. No union path. No standardized apprenticeship pipeline. Vinyl cutting survived by becoming insular. Knowledge is passed by trust, proximity, and bloodline-level loyalty—not résumés.

So yeah—
If an apprenticeship ever opens, everyone with real skill will want it.
And 99% of people will never be offered one.
Not because they’re unqualified.
But because the machine is worth more than the student.

[snoballin]

Solid response guys, thank you for the insight and encouragement!

[MEGAMIKE]

and number 5.
Infultrate the church of scientology work your way to the top it may take years ,because they have 2x DMM lathes sitting there doing nothing...

[Aussie0zborn]

Actually, Mike those DMM lathes work full time and they’re looking for another one but it’s still a good plan.

[piaptk]

HARSH TOKES FROM THE BONG OF REALITY... but 100% accurate.

Your only real path forward if you don't have a personal friendship and connection with a mastering engineer is to beg someone to let you empty trashcans and paint the walls for them unpaid for a year or two until they develop enough trust in or kindness for you to slowly start giving you your shot. Unless you have an untamable passion for cutting lacquer masters that can't be quenched by buying a dubplate cutter, it is not worth the hustle to get there, financially.

If you don't have any experience with cutting, your best bet is start with www.LatheCutCamp.com and get your feet wet and see if cutting records is even for you....

The reason no one “wants” to teach someone a Neumann VMS system has very little to do with ego and almost everything to do with risk, scarcity, and economics.

First: there are very few of these machines left that actually run every day. A working VMS-70 or VMS-80 is not like a guitar or a console—it is a fragile, multi-system ecosystem: lathe, cutter head, rack electronics, preview chain, pitch/depth computer, custom cabling, spare parts that no longer exist, and decades of undocumented hacks. If something breaks, you might lose weeks or months of work—or permanently lose a part that cannot be replaced. Letting a new person touch it is not “mentorship,” it is a financial and operational risk.

Second: the training cost is real. Teaching someone on a VMS is not like teaching Pro Tools. You are burning lacquers, styli, time, and reputation while someone learns. Every mistake costs money. Every bad cut risks a client. That is why historically, mastering houses trained people internally over many years, under contract, with loyalty expected in return. That world barely exists anymore.

Third: this is one of the last true craft bottlenecks in audio. Everyone can “master,” everyone can “produce,” everyone can “cut dubs.” But very few people can run a legacy pressing-grade lathe system properly. That scarcity is what keeps certain rooms alive. Training a stranger is literally training your future competition in a shrinking market. There is no moral incentive to do that—only sentimental ones.

Fourth: most of the people who still run these systems did not “get taught” in the romantic sense. They:

Inherited a room

Bought a broken system and fixed it

Learned by destroying material and eating the cost

Got trained under non-disclosure, non-compete, or internal-only conditions

So when you say: “Your best bet is to buy a lathe for $60k and learn yourself,” that is historically accurate. That is how almost every modern cutter who isn’t legacy-staff learned. Not because people are evil—because the machine, the market, and the economics force secrecy.

And the final uncomfortable truth:
There is no formal ladder anymore. No school. No guild. No union path. No standardized apprenticeship pipeline. Vinyl cutting survived by becoming insular. Knowledge is passed by trust, proximity, and bloodline-level loyalty—not résumés.

So yeah—
If an apprenticeship ever opens, everyone with real skill will want it.
And 99% of people will never be offered one.
Not because they’re unqualified.
But because the machine is worth more than the student.

[mrd]

HARSH TOKES FROM THE BONG OF REALITY... but 100% accurate.

Ha!

[Dub Studio]

I agree with much of what has been said but I would add a few hits from a slightly less harsh bong:

It sounds like you already have a good inroad. If you are operating a record press that already puts you above 99% of all applicants to a potential opening. Knowledge of the inner workings of a pressing plant is not something all MEs will necessarily have at their fingertips, and having someone on the inside could be helpful to them. You will also have proximity to the industry which is more likely to lead to openings.

Opportunities do come up, for example when a cutting engineer works 5 days a week in their room and wants someone to do some weekend work to increase capacity. Or when they have acquired a second lathe and want to use it for less taxing work. Or when their main room handles mostly digital work (all real examples I have heard about locally to me in recent years). You might need to be prepared to move location because let's face it the Neumann is probably not going to come to you unless you buy one. Major cities with lots of studios may seem like an obvious choice, but some MEs with a good existing client base move to more remote locations as a lifestyle choice, so don't be afraid to look further afield. You will probably need to be flexible to fill in around the main engineer's work as well, and there might not be enough hours for a full time role.

One other point I would make... operating a Neumann means you are still essentially just part of the same manufacturing chain you are already in. You are going to spend most of your studio time listening to digital audio, farting about with technical/logistical stuff, with relatively little interraction with analog audio or vinyl other than recording lacquers, maybe looking at them under a microscope (because you can't listen to them) and then chucking them in a box. You might get some TPs back several weeks or months later, but not always.

I know your OP is not about dub cutting, but my experience is that it prepares you for cutting lacquers and in some ways teaches you more about vinyl. You get to listen back to your work more and get much more real time feedback from clients. If you can cut good dubs, you are very well placed to learn to cut lacquers, having spent more time listening to the grooves you have actually cut than most lacquer cutting engineers ever do.

Additionally, you can start to cut lacquers on a dub cutting machine - I have done so many times and it can make good economic sense to do so. The same cannot be said of cutting dubs on a Neumann... the financial burden of running a machine like that means dubs are not really worth your time these days. So perversely, it can actually limit what you spend your time doing.

A final point: you will need to be very lucky to find a role like this, but starting off with dubs might be your best route. I was offered a Neumann for £12.5k once, and I was also offered a job in a cutting house that had 2 x Neumanns.. neither of those things would have happened if I hadn't been cutting dubs. As Seneca said: luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

[snoballin]

Super pumped on the engagement fellas. I couldn’t be more appreciative of the insight. Hell yeah, once I get my finances more situated, I got a new goal I can walk towards. Thanks again yall. I didn’t even know there was a camp for this.