ElasticStage = Lasers (By Their Own Claims)

[Jccc]

this girl did a experiment using a Epilog to Etch grooves into a playable records. The results sound like crap but you can hear the audio. Really cool experiment:

https://vimeo.com/65533463?fl=pl&fe=sh

[Dub Studio]

Thanks guys for getting back on the other topic here, lasers!

I think laser cutting is a massive stretch. It's fine for burning pits into CDs, but is there a laser that can cut such fine 3D grooves? And faster than real time?

Maybe I am missing something here, but how do you cut one wall at 45 degrees without scorching the other? How do you direct the light so that it cuts a perfect v-shape?

Laser light points in the same direction until it hits something, and to create a v-shaped groove you would need some sort of v-shaped laser blade that only cut to a fixed depth at a fixed point and then stopped. You could use 2 lasers, but you couldn't form a point because lasers don't easily cancel each other out, unless they are from a coherent source, but even then they diffract when they meet rather than cancel out completely, and who knows what happens to the phase once each laser has burnt through a solid. Would you not just be left with a hot mess? The energy has to go somewhere.

And, how would you get rid of all the burnt gunk? Is that why HD vinyl went for ceramic, to create a powdered swarf instead of a lump of burnt crap? I am guessing the best you could achieve on vinyl discs would be akin to mono embossing, but more noisy?

Perhaps the bigger question is why on earth would you want to do this? It certainly wouldn't be higher definition, because definition is not an issue in the first place. Vinyl is as high definition as it will ever need to be. Higher in fact.

The problem is in controlling that definition so the fidelity is as high as possible. Assuming you could control the fidelity, most people are gonna play it back on an analog turntable anyway. So doesn't that kind of make the whole thing moot?

I dunno, I would be amazed if anyone pursues this after HD Vinyl failed. If they do, best of luck obvs.

[farmersplow]

Does it make sense to cut vinyl directly with a laser? Under certain conditions, yes. If it's flawless, has no background noise, and at least the quality of analog. If it's just as fast or faster, that's an advantage, but not absolutely necessary.

The fact is, it's not possible to cut vinyl (or plastic) with a laser at the necessary resolution. (At least not yet.)

It's easier with denser materials like ceramic, since material can be removed in a more controlled way. HD Vinyl researched ceramics. Not to play these ceramic records, but to produce them as pressing dies. The goal was to bypass the entire electroplating process (silver plating, nickel plating, father, mother, son, daughter dies) and press directly with these ceramic dies. They would be stable enough for 10,000 pressings, which is usually sufficient. Multiple lasers are used to remove the material. The amount of material to be removed at each point in the groove is stored digitally. Theoretically, 20 lasers could be arranged above the ceramic disc and work like coal miners in a mine until they are finished. They wouldn't interfere with each other.

Unfortunately, lasers aren't precise enough yet. But that will change someday.

[Lupu]

ElasticStage having nothing to do with lasers seems to be the obvius conclusion and consensus.

I think it would be appropriate for the original poster to revise at least the subject/title of this thread, or for the moderators to review it, unless unsubstantiated public claims about other people’s businesses are OK here.

Back to off-topic:

Regarding the HD Vinyl goals. I don’t think nickel stamper lifetime is a significant problem in the vinyl record industry. Neither is the ”toxic” nature of the electroforming process or the quality degradiation from the multiple steps. A high quality DMM cut combined with flawless electroforming and pressing can provide outstanding ”HD” quality and signal to noise ratio already.

Manufacturing or 3D printing a (positive) master disc digitally from a virtually modeled perfect groove could make sense though, if the necessary resolution and quality would be available at some point. For efficient in-house pressing plant operation, it would make sense not needing to maintain a cutting lathe and to source blanks overseas.

Digitally printed master discs would retain 100% compability with traditional analog cut master discs (which many clients would still bring or prefer for various reasons) and most importantly with the current pressing lines. So let’s forget ceramic stampers for now.

If the digitally 3D printed master disc would be made from an electrically conductive material, the silvering step could be avoided before electroforming. One could call this DDMM or Digital Direct Metal Mastering.

But how about the laser? It could be involved, but perhaps not by cutting the grooves or carving the material away but with some new additive 3D printing technology instead.

One example of a recent, related technology below. The resolution needed is not yet there, but printing speed with 2000 simultaneous laser foci seems impressive.

Digital Holography Allows Ultrafast 3D Nanofabrication

https://3dprinting.com/news/digital-holography-allows-ultrafast-3d-nanofabrication/

[Dub Studio]

Does it make sense to cut vinyl directly with a laser? Under certain conditions, yes. If it's flawless, has no background noise, and at least the quality of analog. If it's just as fast or faster, that's an advantage, but not absolutely necessary.

The fact is, it's not possible to cut vinyl (or plastic) with a laser at the necessary resolution. (At least not yet.)

It's easier with denser materials like ceramic, since material can be removed in a more controlled way. HD Vinyl researched ceramics. Not to play these ceramic records, but to produce them as pressing dies. The goal was to bypass the entire electroplating process (silver plating, nickel plating, father, mother, son, daughter dies) and press directly with these ceramic dies. They would be stable enough for 10,000 pressings, which is usually sufficient. Multiple lasers are used to remove the material. The amount of material to be removed at each point in the groove is stored digitally. Theoretically, 20 lasers could be arranged above the ceramic disc and work like coal miners in a mine until they are finished. They wouldn't interfere with each other.

Unfortunately, lasers aren't precise enough yet. But that will change someday.

Sure, I mean I get there are advantages on the manufacturing side. Instantantaneous, long-lasting stampers. What's not to like?

But would the advantages not be outweighed by the cost of it, not to mention the challenges of bringing a quasi-analog product to market?

Vinyl gives us a way to take audio and add value to it, and we already have everything we need to do that on a financially sustainable basis.

So-called HD Vinyl made from digital stampers only serves to take some of that added value away, so it becomes one step closer to its digital competitors.

Who really wants that?

[Dub Studio]

ElasticStage having nothing to do with lasers seems to be the obvius conclusion and consensus.

I think it would be appropriate for the original poster to revise at least the subject/title of this thread, or for the moderators to review it, unless unsubstantiated public claims about other people’s businesses are OK here.

Back to off-topic:

Regarding the HD Vinyl goals. I don’t think nickel stamper lifetime is a significant problem in the vinyl record industry. Neither is the ”toxic” nature of the electroforming process or the quality degradiation from the multiple steps. A high quality DMM cut combined with flawless electroforming and pressing can provide outstanding ”HD” quality and signal to noise ratio already.

Manufacturing or 3D printing a (positive) master disc digitally from a virtually modeled perfect groove could make sense though, if the necessary resolution and quality would be available at some point. For efficient in-house pressing plant operation, it would make sense not needing to maintain a cutting lathe and to source blanks overseas.

Digitally printed master discs would retain 100% compability with traditional analog cut master discs (which many clients would still bring or prefer for various reasons) and most importantly with the current pressing lines. So let’s forget ceramic stampers for now.

If the digitally 3D printed master disc would be made from an electrically conductive material, the silvering step could be avoided before electroforming. One could call this DDMM or Digital Direct Metal Mastering.

But how about the laser? It could be involved, but perhaps not by cutting the grooves or carving the material away but with some new additive 3D printing technology instead.

One example of a recent, related technology below. The resolution needed is not yet there, but printing speed with 2000 simultaneous laser foci seems impressive.

Digital Holography Allows Ultrafast 3D Nanofabrication

https://3dprinting.com/news/digital-holography-allows-ultrafast-3d-nanofabrication/

I think the idea is to create a stamper with the laser(s) which I hadn't realised before. Making ridges rather than grooves does make slightly more sense because you would be able to craft a v-shape more easily that way.

My point is that it seems like a crazy idea to use this kind of brute force technology to "improve" vinyl manufacturing because it might take away some of the charm of it.

[misjah]

Just saw a record they “pressed”…8 mins on 33rpm with 2/3rd of the record being the lead out….

[Fuzzbox]

Secrets out!
Link to Canada patent

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/90/fa/2c/55c6257ca84ad4/CA3211003A1.pdf

Elasticstage, lathe cut on petg with diamond stylus

No secret except for some sort of electostatic blank hold down. I prefer a Souri style lock nut

I think their “revolutionary production” is a patent for the creator to end user

[Dub Studio]

Vacuum chucks produce vibration? Don't they take the same feed from the chip suction anyway? Neat idea to use an electrostatic chuck, but is it a game changer, or a solution to a problem that didn't exist?

I think we are looking at this in the wrong way. I can't see much in the way of revolutionary tech, but the on-demand delivery of LPs at that price point (even without printed sleeves) is certainly new.

Getting machines to do the bulk of the work and sidestepping the mastering stage is what seems to be allowing this on-demand price point (note the word "robot" in the patent, and the lack of any mention of mastering). Record shops and distributors are also disposed of and replaced by the in-house point of sale, and for that matter the need for a record label is largely redundant.

As Fuzzbox has pointed out, It seems like the idea is to create a sort of "client sandwich" with the buyer and seller both using the same platform, one on the back end, one on the front end. I think that is a strength, but also a weakness. I already have quite deep concerns about apparently having no mastering engineer in the chain. I have bigger concerns about having no humans in the audio loop at all, and what this means for the vinyl ecosystem. Cutting out so many of its key components might seem like a good idea in the short term, but with so many of the experienced professionals missing from the equation, how is the quality of both the music and the sound to be maintained?

Having zero barrier to entry seems like a great idea, and I am all for that, but with this system it looks like it would be possible to produce a record and sell it without a single person having ever listened to it. I am not sure how I feel about that that. Maybe some guard rails are a good thing?

To me, good records come from careful curation by a record label, careful mastering by an experienced engineer, and careful distribution and sale. Of course, sometimes short cuts are taken, and sometimes that's fine, but to create a platform where cutting all the corners is baked into the system? I really wonder.

[farmersplow]

As far as I understand, only the process is patented. I can't clearly see whether the static charging of the record blank is also part of the patent.

As I understand it, the static fixing was chosen to allow for changing the blanks during the automated process. I don't know if they're doing themselves any favors with that. It could also be done with a vacuum. Due to the static charge of the record blank, it's almost impossible to vacuum up the shavings during the cutting process. Although they write in the patent that the shavings are vacuumed up during and after the cutting process, I believe it only happens after the cutting process, once the record has been made antistatic again (which they also state).

If it works that way too, then they've done a good job.

Regarding the mastering, I agree with 'Dub Studio'. Individual customization would probably be better. But for most consumers who otherwise enjoy their music from streaming services, it will still be something special.

[spinnertownblanks]

It’s definitely missing a human, we know (via a friend) of someone who’s had to cancel their entire release after getting extremely low quality cuts, bad fidelity, low volume and noisey. I assume a human didn’t listen back to that. Just seen on their instagram loads of terrible comments, seems the lack of human touch is definitely a huge negative.

[farmersplow]

If it works that way too, then they've done a good job.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way.

[PLD]

Told ya...!

[Dub Studio]

If it works that way too, then they've done a good job.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way.

It's not a good idea to cut with swarf all over the place is it? I find it gets in the way of the cut and can sometimes be audible.

[Dub Studio]

It’s definitely missing a human, we know (via a friend) of someone who’s had to cancel their entire release after getting extremely low quality cuts, bad fidelity, low volume and noisey. I assume a human didn’t listen back to that. Just seen on their instagram loads of terrible comments, seems the lack of human touch is definitely a huge negative.

Yes it is a negative, not just for the end user, but for everyone in the industry. Putting out low cost, poor-quality product is so damaging because it reflects badly on all of us.

As Farmersplow says, there is a market for terrible sounding records, because some people either don't care or don't know any better.

That's why there is a duty and a responsibility to get things right, because it keeps the whole ecosystem healthy.

[Dub Studio]

5% of reviews on Trustpilot are 1-star. Issues ranging from noise, distortion, smudges, wrong tracks, delays, no audio at all, the list goes on.

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/elasticstage.com?stars=1

[mushroomjesus]

Secret inside image.
Deep within the Elastic Stage bunker, the system runs uninterrupted.
Laser lathes cut records in synchronized rows.
Observe the laser glow.

[AlexShad]

It’s definitely missing a human, we know (via a friend) of someone who’s had to cancel their entire release after getting extremely low quality cuts, bad fidelity, low volume and noisey. I assume a human didn’t listen back to that. Just seen on their instagram loads of terrible comments, seems the lack of human touch is definitely a huge negative.

It's very apparent when all of the ES records I've seen are majority lead out grooves. Definitely an automated safety net for the cutting to not run out of space.

I've ordered a 33 12" from them, 20 mins per side, and it barely covers a third of the record per side.

[Dub Studio]

This seems somewhat implausible. 20 minutes, and only a third of the disc? I would like to see that.

Also I doubt it's a safety net, pitch control is a very well understood process at this point. Where is the danger exactly?